Choke used in self-defense ends in death

Tom Yum · 11-26-2005, 07:07 PM

http://www.abcactionnews.com/stories...822fight.shtml

The news report doesn't release much information except that the bigger fellow was on top (what does that mean? was the victim mounting the MA-ist or in his guard) and got choked out, leading to this poor guys demise. The action was caught on video.

Here's more from another source about the video:

The video shows that Makowski (6foot4inch 271lbs) charged and body slammed a 25 year army guy. Some shit got started in the drive through. They got out of the car and a 2 on 2 started. Makowski bodyslammed the other guy and took him down and was pounding on him. The other two stopped fighting to watch them. Someone said for him to let go of the choke, and he replied that he would when Makowski would let him. Others say the response was, I will when he stops hitting me. The choke was held from 2 - 3 minutes. And the description was that it was a headlock.

Headlock? I am thinking guillotine.

Scenario 1: The two parties probably got into a verbal argument, words were exchanged and the kid probably tackled the army guy onto the ground and starts pounding. Army guy goes into defense, pulls guard and seizes a guillotine while the giant kid throws shots while in the guard/guilotine and probably got gassed and passed out quick (2-3 minutes).

Scenario 2: Same escalation, but the big kid does a WWE style body slam and army guy finds enough leverage to pull half-guard from being under a cross-body type position. Army guy gets a half-guilotine-lapel-assisted choke and keeps it tight while the big kid drives shots at the army guy's body and head. Big kid starts to pass out.

Tom Yum · 11-26-2005, 07:26 PM

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/08/23/Pa...se_resul.shtml

It started with four men waiting in line at the 24-hour drive-through. According to witnesses, honks were exchanged during the long wait, and so were words. It was Makowski and friend Rick Hoadley, 21, in a black 2000 Toyota pickup. Ahead of them was Robless-Taylor and Samuel Wenzel Jr., 21, in a silver 1997 Honda sport utility vehicle.

Hoadley said the other two men threw something at their truck. They pulled around the drive-through and parked. The videotape, prosecutors said, shows Robless-Taylor and Wenzel following the truck.

What it shows next, neither side agrees on.

Makowski charges Robless-Taylor, driving him from the right side of the screen to the left, prosecutors say. Robless-Taylor appears to trip and fall over a planter. Makowski body-slams him once, and Bartlett believes may have done so twice. Makowski appears to be all over Robless-Taylor, driving him to the ground, battering him, prosecutors say.

That's when Robless-Taylor uses the choke hold. Hoadley and Wenzel stop their brawling and stand over the other two men. A crowd gathers. Someone tells Robless-Taylor to let go.

According to prosecutors, Robless-Taylor's response was: "I will as soon as he lets me."

Witnesses said the choke hold lasted from two to three minutes.

Because Makowski had struck Robless-Taylor, and continued to strike him on the ground, the prosecutor said, Robless-Taylor had the right to keep him in the choke hold.

"Unfortunately the two bystanders should have pulled him off," Bartlett said. "But that didn't happen."

Alcohol may have fueled the brawl. Makowski's blood-alcohol level was 0.14, according to a sheriff's report. Bartlett said all four men involved in the fight had been drinking.

BoarSpear · 11-26-2005, 08:12 PM

I migrate back and forth from Tampa to Daytona...I followed the story when it happened in August...

There was alot more to that story than got printed...Makowski was a high school football player and Wrestler planning to continue in college. He attacked the army guy with a MAGLITE

the army guy took the mag light and used it to lock the choke in after the wrestler took him down and mounted him trying to GNP... the army guy never let the choke off until the cops arrived...dude was punching to the end when the cops arrived...he was breathing but gassed when cops pulled him off....he died after passing out...

http://pasco.tbo.com/pasco/MGBUJWTTVAE.html

**Hardball** · 11-26-2005, 08:18 PM

We need more self defense rulings.

BoarSpear · 11-26-2005, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoarSpear

I migrate back and forth from Tampa to Daytona...I followed the story when it happened in August...

There was alot more to that story than got printed...Makowski was a high school football player and Wrestler planning to continue in college. He attacked the army guy with a MAGLITE

the army guy took the mag light and used it to lock the choke in after the wrestler took him down and mounted him trying to GNP... the army guy never let the choke off until the cops arrived...dude was punching to the end when the cops arrived...he was breathing but gassed when cops pulled him off....he died after passing out...

http://pasco.tbo.com/pasco/MGBUJWTTVAE.html

both civilians were armed, a bottle and the maglite...both vets were empty handed...one civilian backed off when warned the guys in the car were fresh home from Iraq..the big wrestler/football player didnt think that compared to his size and experience in sports...he was wrong, dead wrong.

Thats why no charges were filed, plain and simple.

OmaPlata · 11-26-2005, 10:25 PM

Looks like an arm choke from the bottom, he has the guys arm on top trapped and is locked, usually from the top only but from the vid it looks like it

OmaPlata · 11-26-2005, 10:29 PM

[quote=BoarSpear]He attacked the army guy with a MAGLITE

the army guy took the mag light and used it to lock the choke in after the wrestler took him down and QUOTE]

I clubbed a guy once who attacked me, smashed him in the face pretty good 3 times, which did nothing, he took the club and choked me with it, then I was waiting to get smashed back but he just said 'dont pull a weapon on me again' so i carry a gun these days

BoarSpear · 11-26-2005, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmaPlata

I clubbed a guy once who attacked me, smashed him in the face pretty good 3 times, which did nothing, he took the club and choked me with it, then I was waiting to get smashed back but he just said 'dont pull a weapon on me again' so i carry a gun these days

Dude thats pathetic...you apparently didnt hit him in the face with club very hard...that or you picked a fight with superman

if you werent willing to hit an attacker hard enough to stop him...what makes you think you'll be able to pull the trigger? Its you not really wanting to hurt another person that made you pull your hits with the club...it aint gonna be any easier to shoot him.

sounds like youre just gonna provide the next attacker with a gun...

BoarSpear · 11-26-2005, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmaPlata

Looks like an arm choke from the bottom, he has the guys arm on top trapped and is locked, usually from the top only but from the vid it looks like it

what video are you basing this on? The dude even said he choked him with the flashlight..so did the cops...

Sensei Saki · 11-26-2005, 10:42 PM

That's a good question.

All of them?I have never heard about The dude even said he choked him with the flashlight.Ayuh. If
cops
did, then I will be surprised.

BoarSpear · 11-26-2005, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sensei Saki

That's a good question.

All of them?I have never heard about The dude even said he choked him with the flashlight.Ayuh. If
cops
did, then I will be surprised.

so a cop doing his job would surprise you Saki?

Man and i thought i was cynical

OmaPlata · 11-27-2005, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoarSpear

what video are you basing this on? The dude even said he choked him with the flashlight..so did the cops...

THE VIDEo in the first post, on the site, i didnt see a flashlight, but it isnt very clear anything going on.
the guy I hit with the club was trying to pull me out of the car, i thought it was locked, to my surprise it wasnt so i grabbed the club and bashed him with it, but the guy was "Randall Tex Cobb" clone, it wasnt slowing him down., and dont worry i will pull the trigger without hestiation if i ever have to. wasnt like i didnt use the club, it was more like i didnt have time to set up a good swing with it or get good velocity. I had a choice that day to bring the shot gun or the club, had i brought the gun, who knows what would have happened. besides I was 18 years old and had Tex Cobb attacking me, it wasnt a merry occasion http://silversurfer91.homestead.com/files/tex.jpg

**Thai Bri** · 11-27-2005, 01:11 PM

nd all this because of a fight over jack sheeeeee-it.

You guys should allow the carrying of guns over there. That way, things like this wouldn't happen.

BoarSpear · 11-27-2005, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmaPlata

THE VIDEo in the first post, on the site, i didnt see a flashlight, but it isnt very clear anything going on.
the guy I hit with the club was trying to pull me out of the car, i thought it was locked, to my surprise it wasnt so i grabbed the club and bashed him with it, but the guy was "Randall Tex Cobb" clone, it wasnt slowing him down., and dont worry i will pull the trigger without hestiation if i ever have to. wasnt like i didnt use the club, it was more like i didnt have time to set up a good swing with it or get good velocity. I had a choice that day to bring the shot gun or the club, had i brought the gun, who knows what would have happened. besides I was 18 years old and had Tex Cobb attacking me, it wasnt a merry occasion http://silversurfer91.homestead.com/files/tex.jpg

He tried to pull you out of the car? Okay lets hear the rest of this story...What did an 18 yr old omaplata do to piss of the biker?...Ive pulled a few smartasses out of the "safety" of their cage myself...usually after they pissed me off then hid in the car....and taunted me from within it...since he pulled you out and kicked your ass....and warned you about the weapons, its sounds like a man teachin a punk some manners...did you pull the tough guy act on the wrong guy?

and i saw that video...you cant see shit

i thought you had seen a different one...

BoarSpear · 11-27-2005, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thai Bri

nd all this because of a fight over jack sheeeeee-it.

You guys should allow the carrying of guns over there. That way, things like this wouldn't happen.

We have guns and you know it...we kicked your countries ass with them already....its a shame the girlscouts hadnt been founded yet, we could have let them do it...buncha british idiots...

11-26-2005, 07:07 PM	#1 (permalink)
Tom Yum Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Here and there. Posts: 11,307 Groans: 1 Groaned at 4 Times in 4 Posts	Choke used in self-defense ends in death http://www.abcactionnews.com/stories...822fight.shtml The news report doesn't release much information except that the bigger fellow was on top (what does that mean? was the victim mounting the MA-ist or in his guard) and got choked out, leading to this poor guys demise. The action was caught on video. Here's more from another source about the video: The video shows that Makowski (6foot4inch 271lbs) charged and body slammed a 25 year army guy. Some shit got started in the drive through. They got out of the car and a 2 on 2 started. Makowski bodyslammed the other guy and took him down and was pounding on him. The other two stopped fighting to watch them. Someone said for him to let go of the choke, and he replied that he would when Makowski would let him. Others say the response was, I will when he stops hitting me. The choke was held from 2 - 3 minutes. And the description was that it was a headlock. Headlock? I am thinking guillotine. Scenario 1: The two parties probably got into a verbal argument, words were exchanged and the kid probably tackled the army guy onto the ground and starts pounding. Army guy goes into defense, pulls guard and seizes a guillotine while the giant kid throws shots while in the guard/guilotine and probably got gassed and passed out quick (2-3 minutes). Scenario 2: Same escalation, but the big kid does a WWE style body slam and army guy finds enough leverage to pull half-guard from being under a cross-body type position. Army guy gets a half-guilotine-lapel-assisted choke and keeps it tight while the big kid drives shots at the army guy's body and head. Big kid starts to pass out.

11-26-2005, 07:26 PM	#2 (permalink)
Tom Yum Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Here and there. Posts: 11,307 Groans: 1 Groaned at 4 Times in 4 Posts	Another source http://www.sptimes.com/2005/08/23/Pa...se_resul.shtml It started with four men waiting in line at the 24-hour drive-through. According to witnesses, honks were exchanged during the long wait, and so were words. It was Makowski and friend Rick Hoadley, 21, in a black 2000 Toyota pickup. Ahead of them was Robless-Taylor and Samuel Wenzel Jr., 21, in a silver 1997 Honda sport utility vehicle. Hoadley said the other two men threw something at their truck. They pulled around the drive-through and parked. The videotape, prosecutors said, shows Robless-Taylor and Wenzel following the truck. What it shows next, neither side agrees on. Makowski charges Robless-Taylor, driving him from the right side of the screen to the left, prosecutors say. Robless-Taylor appears to trip and fall over a planter. Makowski body-slams him once, and Bartlett believes may have done so twice. Makowski appears to be all over Robless-Taylor, driving him to the ground, battering him, prosecutors say. That's when Robless-Taylor uses the choke hold. Hoadley and Wenzel stop their brawling and stand over the other two men. A crowd gathers. Someone tells Robless-Taylor to let go. According to prosecutors, Robless-Taylor's response was: "I will as soon as he lets me." Witnesses said the choke hold lasted from two to three minutes. Because Makowski had struck Robless-Taylor, and continued to strike him on the ground, the prosecutor said, Robless-Taylor had the right to keep him in the choke hold. "Unfortunately the two bystanders should have pulled him off," Bartlett said. "But that didn't happen." Alcohol may have fueled the brawl. Makowski's blood-alcohol level was 0.14, according to a sheriff's report. Bartlett said all four men involved in the fight had been drinking.

11-26-2005, 08:18 PM	#4 (permalink)
Hardball Premiere Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,404 Groans: 0 Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post	We need more self defense rulings. __________________ The Way of the Warrior is Practice. Daily practice, accumulate practice minute by minute, hour by hour and day by day. {Book of 5 Rings} Mike Brewers 2008 Sit up challenge 50,000/100,000 running balance.(Crunches) Kicks 6,300/100,000

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11-26-2005, 08:12 PM	#3 (permalink)
BoarSpear Registered User Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 5,729 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	I migrate back and forth from Tampa to Daytona...I followed the story when it happened in August... There was alot more to that story than got printed...Makowski was a high school football player and Wrestler planning to continue in college. He attacked the army guy with a MAGLITE the army guy took the mag light and used it to lock the choke in after the wrestler took him down and mounted him trying to GNP... the army guy never let the choke off until the cops arrived...dude was punching to the end when the cops arrived...he was breathing but gassed when cops pulled him off....he died after passing out... http://pasco.tbo.com/pasco/MGBUJWTTVAE.html

11-26-2005, 10:25 PM	#6 (permalink)
OmaPlata Registered User Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: san diego Posts: 1,404 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Looks like an arm choke from the bottom, he has the guys arm on top trapped and is locked, usually from the top only but from the vid it looks like it

11-26-2005, 10:29 PM	#7 (permalink)
OmaPlata Registered User Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: san diego Posts: 1,404 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	[quote=BoarSpear]He attacked the army guy with a MAGLITE the army guy took the mag light and used it to lock the choke in after the wrestler took him down and QUOTE] I clubbed a guy once who attacked me, smashed him in the face pretty good 3 times, which did nothing, he took the club and choked me with it, then I was waiting to get smashed back but he just said 'dont pull a weapon on me again' so i carry a gun these days

11-26-2005, 10:42 PM	#10 (permalink)
Sensei Saki "Endless Wisdom" Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Cyberspace Posts: 781 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	That's a good question. All of them?I have never heard about The dude even said he choked him with the flashlight.Ayuh. If cops did, then I will be surprised.

11-27-2005, 01:11 PM	#13 (permalink)
Thai Bri Premiere Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 5,423 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	nd all this because of a fight over jack sheeeeee-it. You guys should allow the carrying of guns over there. That way, things like this wouldn't happen.

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