Stand up Vs. Ground work

[Testosterone]

Hey guys,

I know many of you practice both grappling and striking martial arts, and some have chosen one over the other. I also know this is a heated debate, but I am going to ask anyway. I am asking for personal responses and reasons, what suites you and what you think is practical.

If you could only study one MA between a grappling system or a stand up system (say BJJ or MT as examples), solely for self-defence, which would you study? Granted, its better to study both but most people are unable to dedicate themselves entirely to two arts at the same time when they are just beginning.

Thanks for the responses,

T.

[seanyseanybean]

Well, some arts like Ju-jitsu or Hapkido, combine stricking and grappling, so if you wanted to learn both from one art then you can.

I personally would prefer to learn good stand up, though i do think a little grappling is a must.

[danfaggella]

for general self-def. stand up is usually regarded as the safer option. with standup you can fight more than 1 attacker, have less of a chance of being bitten/clawed/hit in nuts, not to mention you can run faster when starting on your feet.

i find grappling more enjoyable to train in, but for self-defence standup is more likely to save you.

[aseepish]

Muay Thai is a grappling art (plumb/clinch). BJJ is a striking art (mount and then unload your punches).

Seriously, if you are serious about self-defense you need to be functional in all ranges and phases of combat, striking AND grappling, and in edged, blunt, and projectile weapons (including firearms) as well. Something like this: http://demibarbito.com/

As far as empty handed systems are concerned, there are many that teach both striking and grappling. JKDC (note: not really a style), Shoot, Combat Sambo, these are just a few. Traditional styles? How about Hapkido? Ninpo? Pankration? One of thousands of styles of Silat?

My personal experience: I started with striking, (American Kenpo - which does have some grappling elements), then when that club folded, I flitted from art to art, (Aikido, Choi Kwang Do, Arnis de Mano, BJJ (only for a month, then I moved to a different city) before I found a JKDC school (PFS side) and an FMA/Silat school.

More recently I studied Wing Chun in Singapore, BJJ in Japan, and MT in Thailand. I train in BJJ full time now (not because I believe it's the best art, but because the club is walking distance from my apartment). I live in Canada, I don't really need self-defense skills apart from situational awareness and common sense.

[seanyseanybean]

Originally Posted by aseepish

Seriously, if you are serious about self-defense you need to be functional in all ranges and phases of combat, striking AND grappling, and in edged, blunt, and projectile weapons (including firearms) as well. Something like this: http://demibarbito.com/
I live in Canada, I don't really need self-defense skills apart from situational awareness and common sense.

I dont agree with you on this. Many ppl just want to learn basic self defence. Where i live the only danger i am in is a gang of chavs (thugs) starting shit, in this situation i would probably just kick any bollocks in site, punch noses, and maybe use push kicks then i would run my ass off at the first opertunity. Or maybe a knife point robbery where i work, in which case i would propbably just whatever they wanted, or if that failed we have some weighty 3 ft solid metal bars behind the tills, which i would swing at the dudes head while screaming "get the **** out or i'll knock your fucking head off!"

I really dont like all this "you need firearm training" as thats dumb, imagine what itd be like if everyone walked around with guns and knives just incase they get mugged.

You yourself said you live in canada so you only really need awareness, so why the hell are you telling this guy that he needs to devote a lifetime of study to all aspects of combat inc weapons, when all he prob needs is to go to boxing or karate a couple of times a week?

[Freedom]

Although people probably would never limit themselves to one range, if i HAD to choose i would say stand up. Easier to run if you need to; easier to fight multiple attackers (although not a preferable situation); easier to see whats going on and stay aware; if you grapple and the other guy has a conceled weapon, then grappling would put you very close to that weapon; surface may be dangerous to grapple on. Then again that is if you HAVE to pick one or t'other.

[aseepish]

Originally Posted by seanyseanybean

You yourself said you live in canada so you only really need awareness, so why the hell are you telling this guy that he needs to devote a lifetime of study to all aspects of combat inc weapons, when all he prob needs is to go to boxing or karate a couple of times a week?

If he NEEDS self-defense because of his profession, surroundings, or lifestyle, a tactical firearms training course will serve him much better than karate or boxing a couple of nights a week.

I probably could have expressed myself a little more clearly. If you are lucky enough to live in a society largely free of armed violence, then your NEED for self-defense training is low. Someone who lives in Johannesburg, SA is going to have different self-defense needs than someone living in Takayama, Japan. Someone who works as a corrections officer is going to have different needs as someone who works as an accountant. Someone who doesn't need self-defense training doesn't have to be that serious about it. But someone who NEEDS self-defense training NEEDs to be proficient in all areas of combat.

Testosterone asked about what is better solely for self-defense, striking or grappling. My point is that these two areas are a small part of what self-defense (self-preservation) actually is.

[seanyseanybean]

since when did guns count as self defence though? all that will do is get you locked up. no matter what your proffession.

[aseepish]

Good point.

It all depends on the laws of your community. I agree that in Canada and in the UK even carrying a gun, much less using one, for reasons of self defense (unless we're talking about polar bears ) will get you locked up. Same thing goes for a knife or any other weapon. In Canada you have to be very careful about using appropriate levels of force, and only in situations where your physical well being is in jeopardy. YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO USE VIOLENCE TO DEFEND YOUR PROPERTY. I would recommend to all martial artists that they know the laws of their community with regards to using their art, especially definitions of what entails justifiable force.

In many US states though, there are conditions where the use of lethal force is justified.

It was in a book by Burton Richardson where I read something along the lines that even if you are against guns, knowing how to use them can tell you if the revolver being pointed at your face is loaded, or if the thug with the semi-automatic forgot to take off the safety.

[seanyseanybean]

yea, but if a guy has a gun pointed at your face, because he wants your wallet, then just give him the damn wallet! **** trying to see if he's bluffing, it isnt worth the risk! The only self defence you will probably ever use is some drunk guy who didnt like the way you looked at his wife, so he throws a haymaker. IMO thats probably the only situation most ppl will experience in their life. Whats the point in learning loads of ridiculously complex and diverse situations that you are never gonna use, i'd rather be be appreciating life rather than being so paranoid that i need to keep a hunting knife strapped to my shin.

[danfaggella]

Aseepish, you have done a fucking shitload of traveling/training, and training bjj full time must be great. Do you plan to persue martial arts as a career?

[treehugger]

As a person who lives in Canada and trains MMA (my club does muay thai/boxing/bjj/wrestling) I would be inclined to use grappling first in any one on one confrontation. There was a guy a few years back in Toronto that was cutting his front lawn, all of a sudden another guy came down the sidewalk and decided to pick a fight. The guy was on his own lawn and punched the aggressor once in the jaw. He went down, hit his head on the sidewalk and died at the scene. This poor SOB ended up convicted of manslaughter with a sentence of 9 years I believe. He is a family guy just out cutting his god damn grass for christ sakes! Also, how many people on the street are trained fighters? Not many, and if they are, chances are they are trained in a striking style and would be helpless against a good bjj fighter with great wrestling takedowns. I respect all opinions, but plain and simple, grappling rules (this includes ground and pound) in a one on one battle with no weapons. If you do not believe this, you have not been in many fights, period.

[danfaggella]

Well, for a one-on-one in a nice grassy spot I might like grappling (my personal forte') but on concrete id be like to **** a guy up, but i might also harm myself, and vs. multiple people, I would get my head kicked off while aplying an rear naked choke to one of the fellows. Some cool shit is Quin Na if your any good at it. I think that being on two feet and having a very painful lock on one of the guys arms/wrists may allow time to talk him and/or his buddies to knock it off.

I wish i knew Quin Na.... :{

[kiddbjj]

if your training purely for self defence then i'd go with stand up, say boxing or muay thai, since basically all self defence starts on your feet. also you'll get good at covering and protecing your head and body AND being able to apply footwork with speed and agility.

personally i've tried stand up in muay thai and still do pad work and occassionally go to classes but i tend to prefer grappling sports, BJJ in my case, simply because i enjoy them more. unless you go full contact with your boxing/ muay thai you won't really get the self defence benefit in my opinion, so its really a question of whether your prepared to take the constant hits to the head and body. the great thing about grappling is that you can basically go 100% without sustaining too much body trauma. you could train hard at BJJ 3-5 nights a week and still be able to go to work/school the next day. try doing that with muay thai/boxing going 100% even 1-2 times per week. you can't! thats why it takes weeks for those guys to recover after competitions.
obviously you can spar lightly but i think that, for me, thats not as fun as getting to choke or be choked which you can do with more realism.

take boxing or muay thai for 1 year. get the foundation and the experience of heavy sparring full contact, it will stay with you for life. then find a grappling club and go with that. imho its more fun and better for your brain and body long term

[aseepish]

Originally Posted by danfaggella

Aseepish, you have done a fucking shitload of traveling/training, and training bjj full time must be great. Do you plan to persue martial arts as a career?

By full time I mean right now I'm only training BJJ, not anything else, not that I'm training BJJ 12 hours a day everyday! LOL

I've been an assistant instructor, but right now I don't have any plans to persue MA as a career. I'm still a mediochre practitioner.