Strength in Grappling

[Testosterone]

Hey guys,

As I have been learning more about grappling, I am starting to get the impression that strength, and possibly more importantly, size, is a very large factor in who wins the fight. With stand up, as long as a minimal strength level exists in both practitioners, speed is the most important physical factors (we are not considering proficiency at fighting, just physical attributes).

It seems that speed is useful in grappling, of course, but if the fighters are of the same speed and skill level the larger one will win, by a large margin.

Is this true? How do the smaller practioners deal with it? Oddly, the majority of the high level BJJ guys I see are small individuals. I would expect they would try to add some pounds of muscle in order to further improve their game.

T.

[Bjjexpertise@be]

The factors that I found that determine who wins more than anything are weight and strength. It's true that technique can overcome both but if one person has only maybe 1 year less of experience against their opponent but they are both stronger and faster, he will be able to win.

[Mike Brewer]

Like Vunak has always said -
"All things being equal, any advantage IS an advantage."

What he meant by that is, if you have two guys with nearly equal skill, the guy with a size advantage will win. If they're the same size, strength will be an advantage, etc. In short, you're right. If you are roughly identical in your training, attributes, and mindset, then the bigger guy will usually take the match.

[Testosterone]

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

Like Vunak has always said -
"All things being equal, any advantage IS an advantage."

What he meant by that is, if you have two guys with nearly equal skill, the guy with a size advantage will win. If they're the same size, strength will be an advantage, etc. In short, you're right. If you are roughly identical in your training, attributes, and mindset, then the bigger guy will usually take the match.

I think you are missing the prime reason I posted.

The fact is, size is not always an invantage in fights. In fact, it is often a disadvantage because it leads to less agility and speed. This is in striking.

The odd thing is that it seems that in grappling, size > speed & agility. A person with larger size can defeat a relatively equal margin of increased speed and agility in his opponent, if the skill level is the same. This is not the same in striking, as long as strength of strikes are relatively similar.

[jubaji]

Originally Posted by Testosterone

The fact is, size is not always an invantage in fights. In fact, it is often a disadvantage because it leads to less agility and speed. .

This BS is so old its starting to fossilize.

[cam427]

Originally Posted by Testosterone

I think you are missing the prime reason I posted.

The fact is, size is not always an invantage in fights. In fact, it is often a disadvantage because it leads to less agility and speed. This is in striking.

The odd thing is that it seems that in grappling, size > speed & agility. A person with larger size can defeat a relatively equal margin of increased speed and agility in his opponent, if the skill level is the same. This is not the same in striking, as long as strength of strikes are relatively similar.

You are badly mistaken. You may have been told by your instructors that being smaller makes you faster, etc but it all means nothing. Why do you think there are weight divisions in all full contact sports.

The extra speed does not make up for the lack of reach and strength difference.

Go and fight a 10 year old kid who has a black belt (in anything). This is an extreme example of what you are saying. He may hit you 20 times but so what. You hit him once and the fight is over.

[Shoot]

Size and strength matter a lot in grappling AND striking. The idea that because you’re smaller, you are faster is false and a dangerous assumption. Besides, power in striking comes from putting your weight into the strike. A larger person can generally hit harder than a smaller person. The 200 lbs mark seems to be an important bench mark for knock out power punching generally.

In grappling strength and size matter a lot too. It may seem ironic to you, but I think size is more important in striking than wrestling. If you gain an advantageous ground position you “feel” pretty heavy to the guy under you, even if you’re outweighed by 50 lbs. But, I don’t mean to give a false sense of security. Bigger stronger guys can often just bust out of a smaller man’s hold without much “technique” to speak of. For example, if you weigh 200 lbs and can bench press over 300 lbs and a 160 lbs guy mounts you, you may be able to simply throw him off by pressing him. You won’t find that “technique” in your BJJ manual.

I can speak from experience. I once wrestled a guy who was about 6'3 and 295 lbs. We wasn’t fat either. He was a college wrestler. I weighed about 195 lbs at 6'0 and was unfortunately the second biggest guy at wrestling practice that day and got stuck with this dude since his regular giant partner was out that day. I took the initiative (to surprise the “bigger, slower” guy) and shot for a double legger. I thought I hit a concrete pillar, and then realized it was his front leg. The next thing I knew I was over one of this shoulders like a baby being burped. He let me down softly. He was a good big man. I was a good small man compared to him.

I’ve noticed a lot of smallish guys in BJJ too. They tend to be more technical and precise because they don’t have strength and size to rely on. BUT, all things being equal in skill level, the bigger, stronger man has the advantage.

One thing I find humorous is the slurring old fashion wrestling holds get from people nowadays. If you’ve ever been in the iron grip of a bear hug (I ... can’t. . . . . br. . . . breath. ..) or even the old fashion headlock by someone who is extremely large, then you would know what I mean.

My advice if you ever fight a guy who is very much larger than you: Hope he’s not a “good big man” and hope you’re a “good small man.”

[aseepish]

Size plus skill is a very scary combination. One of the assistant instructors at my old BJJ club in Japan is a pro MMA fighter (Cristiano Kaminishi http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/f...ighterid=11531 ) He's 98 kilos (216 lbs) and a BJJ brown belt. Rolling with him was an amazing experience in futility (for my part).

[Tom Yum]

Originally Posted by Shoot

A larger person can generally hit harder than a smaller person. The 200 lbs mark seems to be an important bench mark for knock out power punching generally.

Agreed for the most part, because whenever I spar against equal experienced heavyweights I get slowed down faster than they.

There are smaller guys that have knockout power.

Ramon Dekkers is a 136 lb with tremendous power in both hands and feet.

Ricky Hatton is also a 130-lber with hard hittin' KO fists.

Jeff Lacy is a 174lb er with some serious power (Lacy Photo from eastsideboxing.com).

[danfaggella]

I have always thought that it was generaly accepted that on the ground size and strenth are of slightly less importance.

[Tom Yum]

Originally Posted by danfaggella

I have always thought that it was generaly accepted that on the ground size and strenth are of slightly less importance.

Are you talking about pure strength and size versus someone who has technique and experience? Maybe.

If the bigger stronger fellow has the same amount of technique, he will win.

[OmaPlata]

Originally Posted by Testosterone

Hey guys,



Is this true? How do the smaller practioners deal with it? Oddly, the majority of the high level BJJ guys I see are small individuals.

T.

The beauty of BJJ is the fact that you can use it no matter what size or shape your body is. There is no "cookie cutter" technique that will work for everyone. Tall guys can use their longs legs for all sorts of sweeps and things that short legged guys cant, and vice-versa. You have to develope a game plan that works for 'you' and adjust things to fit your body style. Now 2 guys the same level but ones way bigger, then generally the bigger guy has the advantage......unless the smaller guy has better "technique".

[danfaggella]

Tom Yum- yes, but this is what i meant: If two men of equal skill were kickboxing and one fellow was a bit taller and stronger, he would have a greater likelihood of using such an advantage on his feet then on the ground. (IE: if they went to the ground and had equal ground skills, the weaker smaller fellow would have a slightly better chance)

[Mako Victim]

Strength and size play pretty big roles in fighting, that's why there's different weight classes... I'm even taking a few months off my BJJ to just weight lift..

[danfaggella]

Eh, I don't know about that. Just "bulking up" is OK, but you're just going to get to a different weight clas and get beat even worse. Mat time and calisthenics is my philosophy, skill is always respected more than strenth.