WTF was Royler doing in this fight?

[medic06]

Originally Posted by BoarSpear

dude have you seen this fight? all i ever heard when i said something about UFC was how those guys all sucked and Pride was "different," since i had never seen a pride fight, I hushed. Well i have now....and they were right it was different alright it was the most ridiculous thing i had ever seen.
... I have seen XMA demonstrations that werent this ludicrous. Now i realize this is the ring, but how the hell did they arrive at that as sensible even in the ring? ...it was ADMITTING he had nothing better to try...surely he wanted to win...he would have tried what he thought gave him the best chance from within the rule structure and his toolbox. The best he could come up with was that?

If this had been anyone OTHER than Helio, Rickson or his sons i wouldnt assume it reflected on the art, but it was a Gracie! surely they would be the purest GJJ representatives on the planet...if i cant see GJJ work from watching a GRACIE in competition, then where should i look to see how it is applied?

It would seem to me that MMA competition is much like racing or any other competition where name brands are involved..its an advertisment for what your product is capable of...I aint buying it.

You have to read my response in the context of the quote. Sarcasm doesn't come across well in the net

[medic06]

Originally Posted by OmaPlata

No, just the best.......and before you open your mouth, the ADCC proves it, though someone like Jeff Monson and guys like him arent BJJ guys at all.

you really have drank too much of the BJJ kool aid

[bigboywasim]

To say that BJJ sucks due to a fight is just stupid. The greats will lose one time or another. Nobody is invincible and we all only human. To make remarks about a martial art that it is useless and sucks or something like that tells me that some of you people have really no love for martial arts and no clue what you saying.

It is like when my aunt went to college. She wanted to become a lawyer and her parents a doctor. So what did she do well she wanted to make herself and her parents happy so she became both. Now she is a lawyer for well a hospital and makes well 500 grand a year.

The bottom line is even when her parents need advice they are going to tern to a lawyer and when they are going to get sick a doctor. This is the way it is and always will be. Everything has its use. So BJJ for the ground and Judo for throws. Just because Yoshida lost a match well Judo sucks. A Gracie lost well BJJ sucks. These people are fighting the best fighters in the world and they are not going to win every time.

[BoarSpear]

Originally Posted by EmptyneSs

what i think is funny is that u shouldnt get upset when people bash tma's boarspear, in fact using your logic u should support them. all those people who saw some weak 12 year old kid with a blackbeklt at a tma mcdojo and assumed that the entire art was weak fallow the same logic as u have. they watched some kid throw some weak kicks at the mcdojo or saw them doing only forms all day and based his entire opinion of the art on that one thing. this is exactly what u are doing.

i agree the gracies didnt invent anything new, they just trained in judo and jiu jitsu. what they did do was bring the importance of grappling arts to the forefront of martial arts. and judo and jiu jitsu happen to be really awesome arts for self defense. to me its not gjj, or bjj , to me its all just jiu jitsu.

and i didnt watch the fight cause it was 140 mb, but i wouldnt doubt that royler was desperate. sak is one of the best grapplers in the world. he is awesome and yeah he has beaten other gracies.

no empty what gets me is all the SHIT i have read on here about the how SUPERIOR to the TMA's GJJ is do the fact the gracies actually fight...i have read how these guys would "kill" Navy seals and all sort of shit....then i have to watch one of these legendary gracies scoot around on his ass for 13 minutes in a fight BEGGING the opponent to lie down and fight

At what point did it become viable to practice butt scooting as a technique? Why dont they practice the takedowns and striking skills they LACK instead of inventing a completely USELESS new technique? Isnt that the very complaint the MMA people use about TMA ....we are disconected from reality?...well the very idea that a supposed fighter would adopt a technique that REQUIRED the opponent to lay down with you so you have a chance is beyond ANY reasonable explanation. Why would you ASSUME the opponent would voluntarily do this?
At this point the GJJ appears to be the equivalent to a fisherman who doesnt know how to bait a hook or cast the pole, but is an expert at reeling in fish that will jump in the boat and hook themselves before leaping back in the water to be reeled in....where is the fighting spirit and honor of a supposed martial artist? He just gave up and spent the fight scooting around....I would have preferred to be knocked out TRYING than to survive (which he didnt) by scooting aroung begging the opponent to stop beating me up and lay down so i had a chance...however seeing as the fight ended with royler in a KIMURA that didnt even work.

[BoarSpear]

Originally Posted by bigboywasim

To say that BJJ sucks due to a fight is just stupid. The greats will lose one time or another. Nobody is invincible and we all only human. To make remarks about a martial art that it is useless and sucks or something like that tells me that some of you people have really no love for martial arts and no clue what you saying.

It is like when my aunt went to college. She wanted to become a lawyer and her parents a doctor. So what did she do well she wanted to make herself and her parents happy so she became both. Now she is a lawyer for well a hospital and makes well 500 grand a year.

The bottom line is even when her parents need advice they are going to tern to a lawyer and when they are going to get sick a doctor. This is the way it is and always will be. Everything has its use. So BJJ for the ground and Judo for throws. Just because Yoshida lost a match well Judo sucks. A Gracie lost well BJJ sucks. These people are fighting the best fighters in the world and they are not going to win every time.

i didnt say BJJ sucked..i said the GRACIES have overspecialized at ground fighting while neglecting to learn the skills necessary to get an opponent on the ground to use those skills. In the current form even HELIO said GJJ had lost focus and was USELESS for self defense...he probably saw the royler butt scoot and was completely embarrassed. so if the founder of GJJ and I are in agreement that in its CURRENT state GJJ is useless outside the ring, why are you all denying it so? Helio agrees but you all know more about it than him?

[shirase]

I think you are mistaken by assuming that what one gracie has done in a fight against a superior opponent(sakuraba is amazing) reflects the worth of Gracie Jiu-jitsu. I dont know if youve ever seen Royce fight in the early UFCs, but that is the same art and it was effective against all kinds of TMAs, wrestlers and strikers, many of them much larger then him. What you are doing is jumping to conclusions based because of one example of a bad match. That is like the Pride fight I watched yesterday of sakuraba vs gilles arsene. Gilles's background was kickboxing and bjj, but the whole fight he basically threw 2 or 3 jabs, turtled up and exposed his head for knees, and had absolutely zero submission defense on the ground. If I judged kickboxing and bjj by this one fight, I would say that they stink. Then again if I watched any crocop or noguiera fight I would be shown shining counterexamples of how the art doesnt make the fighter, it is how the fighter uses the art that matters to the outcome of the fight.

[danfaggella]

Boar, we know that some people are closed-minded and beleive the gospel truths of systems for one reason or another, believing that one philosophy is the best, and that one martial art is ultimate. I'm sure BJJ guys bash TMA, I bash some shitty TMA places myself, but don't go to thier level and say how much BJJ would suck in the street, I think vale tudo is very important in seeing how a 1v1 no weapons fight would play out, and grappling is very important, it is a realm of a fight that many martial arts studios/dojos/schools dismiss, as well as the clinch. Saku had 35 pounds on the guy, and completely overwhelmed him, Royler did a kinda cowardly and boring thing and started crabbing around. In an actual street confronatation, he would have been running from Saku after the first few punches.

Anyway, I beleive that most rational BJJ fellows can see the relivance of TMA and most martial arts. I myself, with only a little experience in KF, have learned a good deal about attacking vital points and doing things I would never do in the ring, only in the street. I can impliment this into my grappling and my striking and I think that it has furthered me as a developing martial artist.

[BoarSpear]

Originally Posted by danfaggella

Boar, we know that some people are closed-minded and beleive the gospel truths of systems for one reason or another, believing that one philosophy is the best, and that one martial art is ultimate. I'm sure BJJ guys bash TMA, I bash some shitty TMA places myself, but don't go to thier level and say how much BJJ would suck in the street, I think vale tudo is very important in seeing how a 1v1 no weapons fight would play out, and grappling is very important, it is a realm of a fight that many martial arts studios/dojos/schools dismiss, as well as the clinch. Saku had 35 pounds on the guy, and completely overwhelmed him, Royler did a kinda cowardly and boring thing and started crabbing around. In an actual street confronatation, he would have been running from Saku after the first few punches.

Anyway, I beleive that most rational BJJ fellows can see the relivance of TMA and most martial arts. I myself, with only a little experience in KF, have learned a good deal about attacking vital points and doing things I would never do in the ring, only in the street. I can impliment this into my grappling and my striking and I think that it has furthered me as a developing martial artist.

dude I have been wrestling and practicing JJJ and combat judo for 35 plus yrs...i have put a few people to sleep including a SEAL while i was on active duty during a fight onboard a ship...however my gripe ALWAYS HAS and ALWAYS will be that Helio improved the ground dramatically, at the EXPENSE of the ability to get someone there who has ANY skill striking and defending takedowns.

IF the gracies had continued to practice the strikes and takedowns at even a 3 on the scale of 1 to 10 they would STILL be dominant...however i have seen better striking at EVERY MCDOJO i have ever seen, and their takedown skill is on par with the average mcdojo and FAR inferior to ANY judo club....That was the package they presented in UFC 1 and it continued all the way up to roylers fight... i cant say about the rest of their pride fights because i havent watched them...i have them ...but im afraid there will be antics like roylers and my sides are too sore from all the laughing to watch anymore right now.

i agree the MT and boxing and wrestling ADDED to GJJ or BJJ make it effective...but that isnt ONE art its 3 or more...and BTW wrestling is a very traditional martial art i would say...like the oldest one SO ALL the crap about GJJ being superior to the TMA's was just that eh?....it appears maybe the GRACIES ought to RE-learn some TMA's and this time dont "fix them" then maybe you wont have to humiliate yourselves by scooting around on your ass absorbing punishment BEGGING the guy to stop hitting you and fight your fight where you have a chance to keep your undefeated claim intact

[OmaPlata]

Originally Posted by medic06

you really have drank too much of the BJJ kool aid

Yep Im wrong that BJJ isnt the best grappling and that the ADCC doesnt prove it. Please tell me who the best grapplers in the world are. I guess Roger Gracie and Jacare wouldnt qualify, nor would dean Lister....so please amuse us all and tell us

[Memnoch1207]

Originally Posted by BoarSpear

if ring fights are using non reality based technique that completly removes any relevance to the street.

On the street I can pick up a rock and bash your head in with it, but I think that may be against the rules of MMA fighting.

If it were truly reality based, then the loser of the fight probably wouldn't fight again, because he would either be A) Dead B) Seriously injured and definitely not interested in doing "that" again.

"Reality" based fighting is as close to a real self defense situation as you can come without actually taking a serious beating or fearing for your life.

Any anyone who thinks otherwise should man up and step into the ring and find out.

[gabbah]

I would say MOST fights that happen don't seriously hurt the ones involved. Because most people suck att punching, and they really can't kick hard unless the person is lying on the ground.
Sure, they will get busted lips, noses and will be hurting after the fight, but nobody has to die for the fight to be over.
Far from all fights are actually life or death situations.

[Sagacious Lu]

Originally Posted by Memnoch1207

On the street I can pick up a rock and bash your head in with it, but I think that may be against the rules of MMA fighting.

If it were truly reality based, then the loser of the fight probably wouldn't fight again, because he would either be A) Dead B) Seriously injured and definitely not interested in doing "that" again.

"Reality" based fighting is as close to a real self defense situation as you can come without actually taking a serious beating or fearing for your life.

Any anyone who thinks otherwise should man up and step into the ring and find out.

No, "reality" based fighting is as close to an all-out one on one fight to the finish without weapons as you can come without anyone taking a serious beating or fearing for their life. That isn't self-defense at all. In reality the chances of you being forced into a one on one fight to the finish without weapons are pretty damned small because in the real world there are other people who will get involved, in the real world even if both people were unarmed when it starts there is almost always something that can be improvised as a weapon, and besides, in the real world anyone can simply run away.

[BoarSpear]

Originally Posted by Memnoch1207

On the street I can pick up a rock and bash your head in with it, but I think that may be against the rules of MMA fighting.

If it were truly reality based, then the loser of the fight probably wouldn't fight again, because he would either be A) Dead B) Seriously injured and definitely not interested in doing "that" again.

"Reality" based fighting is as close to a real self defense situation as you can come without actually taking a serious beating or fearing for your life.

Any anyone who thinks otherwise should man up and step into the ring and find out.

OH SO ROYLER WAS SCOOTING AROUND ON HIS ASS HUNTING ROCKS?... maybe he should study an FMA and just carry a knife eh?

So youre still gonna claim royler scooting on his ass was reality based? It was reality because he did it but by that claim going in the ring and trying to knock sak out with your spoon bending jedi mind trick is "reality" as long as you do it in the ring... it would probably be as effective as the butt scoot was and be WAY LESS humiliating.

[SamuraiGuy]

Hey dont knock Jedi mind tricks jackass!

[BoarSpear]

Originally Posted by SamuraiGuy

Hey dont knock Jedi mind tricks jackass!

knockem i said they were at least as useful as the GJJ techniques i saw royler Gracie employ in defense of the (at that time) undefeated Gracie clan!... how many more atta boys do you want in a single day?