Gracie Jiujitsu vs. Brazilian Jiujitsu

[KenJeet]

After having researched many Brazilian Jiujitsu schools in Miami and having experienced the different types of training methods employed by these schools, it has become my understanding that the Gracie Jiujitsu Academy of Miami tends to be more self defense oriented. I am not trying to start a controversy here but wanted to get some opinions on the matter. I have decided to go with Pedro Valente, an Helio Gracie Black Belt that teaches Gracie Jiujitsu. After speaking with him for about an hour, it became clear that the system that he teaches based on Helio Gracie's teachings, is very systematic and is taught in a progressive fashion in order to enable the student to retain every move. He was very careful in his choice of words, and made every effort to distinguish between Brazilian Jiujitsu as taught by many schools strictly for sport and Gracie Jiujitsu, still taught till this day primarily for self defense. He explained to me that hardly any of the schools of Brazilian Jiujitsu teach the self defense techniques of the art anymore. Also, he made mention of the fact that most of the Brazilian Jiujitsu schools out there are teaching the system primarily for competition by relying on the Gi a lot to make techniques work. This kind of training, he explained, is avoided at the Gracie Academy. For example, if a technique calls for a grab of the arm or guard pass, it will be taught without ever having to grab the Gi to execute it. This he said makes the transition to no Gi easier. In addition, they also have a T-Shirt class. I just wanted to get opinions on the matter and what everyone thinks are the main differences.

[Machine]

Through my experience I have found that GJJ is more self defense orientated than other BJJ schools. I have also found that GJJ spends alot more time on teaching the basics in detail, thus providing and outstanding foundation.

Also GJJ frowns on strenght being used to execute the technique, where other schools tolerate it.

[GinSueDog]

They seem about the same to me, personally I prefer training without a Gi as it seems more practical. I think it really depends on the instructor and what he considers important.-ED

[KenJeet]

Thank you all for the response. Is anyone out there familiar with the differences or similarities. What would you all say is the strength of the Gracie Jiujitsu (Helio Group) fighters as opposed to other Brazilian Jiujitsu camps.

[Garrison76]

Gracie Jiu Jitsu is not the "Helio" group.

daniel

[KenJeet]

What I mean by Gracie Jiujitsu (the Helio Group) is those instructors under the Torrance Academy who have personally received their instruction and certification from Helio Gracie. I merely am referring to the exact style or method of teaching endorsed by Helio.

[Grahf1]

What about Machado Jiu Jitsu? How does it compare to these two?

[PatrickH]

The Machado style in my opinion is a little more hybrid and has taken on a strong wrestling influence. I know that Carlos is open to learning new techniques regardless of the style to work into his style of jiu-jitsu and they pay very close attention to detail. As far as sport jiu-jitsu goes, theirs has evolved to one of the best competition teams in the country, but as far as I know in MMA it is yet to be seen with the only upper level competitor being Ricco. You also have competitors like Travis Lutter that can roll with any blackbelt in the world no gi.

As far as Helio's style of teaching I believe he does have one of the best styles suited for "self-defense." However......in my opinion, any good sport jiu-jitsu fighter is gonna completly demolish anyone he gets into an altercation with on the street. I think that just like everything else, both sides of the spectrum have their strengths and weaknesses with Helio teaching the better style of "pure jiu-jitsu".

PatrickH

[Machine]

Obviously GJJ and BJJ techniques are 99% the same. From my experience while at the Torrance Academy they stressed the basics, made sure you performed the technique without strength, stayed relaxed, and kept the training focused on self defense.

I also trained with the Machados, at their academy, strength was tolerated, and they focused more on the sport ascpect.

For me I enjoyed the Machado's more because there they showed the latest moves from Brazil and also there were alot more advanced belts to roll with and ask questions. I think the good foundation I obtained at the Gracie Academy helped me make a good transition over to the Machado's.

KenJeet: In my opinion who ever you decide to go with you will get good results, but thru GJJ (Helio) you will have a better understanding of the basics.

[KenJeet]

Thank you all for the response. I am really excited about getting really detailed instruction and I've heard that Pedro Valente's school is the place to get it. I trained for about a year with Bart Vale in shootfighting and the training was incredibly lacking in the finer points. It basically consisted of stepping on to the mat, putting on vale tudo style gloves and going at it with Bart himself. I am 6'4 250 pounds, have played collegiate basketball and have long extremities. However, Bart was like an animal. Although he is about an inch shorter than me, the guy is about 270 pounds with hands and feet like a bear. There is something about suddenly stepping on the mat with an animal, that instills a fear in you that you must overcome or perish. Although I did learn how to be a tough fighter from Bart, I always felt that I lacked a strong foundation and the finer points to making techniques work. It seems to me that many of Bart's moves relied a lot on strength and not enough on pure technique. I use to try and convince myself that Shootfighting was the answer and dismiss Brazilian Jiujitsu as too gi dependant, but no matter how you slice it or dice it, at local shootfighting or mixed martial arts tournaments in Miami, the Brazilian Jiujitsu and vale tudo fighters usually have a relatively easy time with the shootfighters. I guess you can say that I have finally converted!!!! Any comments?

[sccr06]

Since I began training vale tudo style with just shorts and gloves and no gi, I think my technical ability has improved when I put the gi back on. Maybe it is because you are so limited without one on some of the moves.

I will say that if you are not technical with a gi, I think it is nearly impossible to be even slightly technical without one. I think that is the one of the problems with shootfighting is that they don't have the chance to train exclusively technique. Vale Tudo shorts and gloves turns your training into a whole different mess, like it or not.

[Hawk]

Excellent Responses!!!
Machine, you & PatrickH hit it right on the head IMO.
Hawk

[tuffguy]

You guys have been listening to the Rorian theroy of BJJ too much. Every school is different and every teacher is different. I train with Renzo and we train 50% w/the Gi and 50% without. Steve Maxwells school(used to be with torrence until last year), only trained with the gi, and to my knowledge didn't spend a lot of time on self defence. My question is this. If Helio's way is soo much better than Renzo's and the rest of Gracie Barra, Alliance team, Carlson, Top team, Nova Uniao etc... then how come nobody from Torrence has done anything? Never heard of a single guy winning a Pro NHB fight, no sport JJ champions, no ADCC champions etc... nothing. I've never even heard of anyone fromt he school. You lok at some of the other schools and most people can name a few of thier top guys easily. Ralph has the Camarillo brothers, Renzo has the Serra brothers, Ricardo ALmeida, Rodrigo Gracie, the entire Brazilian top team, Machado's have Ricco Rodriguez, Nova Uniao has John Lewis and BJ Penn etc.... What is taught in each class also depends on the students. If we want to work on something in particular, then we do. We aren't interested n doing jumping jacks, doing laps, sit ups etc... so our teachers don't wast time with that. Maybe the students in some of the schools you mentioned are more interested in sport jj than fighting, so the teacher teaches them what they want to learn.

[Machine]

Tuffguy you need to reread my post I never said Helio's way was better than Renzo's. I said obviously GJJ and BJJ techniques are 99% the same, and for me personally I obtained a good foundation. Never did I mention I mention any theroy by Rorion. As for my coment about saying thru GJJ (Helio) you will have a better understanding of the basics, I still agree with that. I am basing that on my personal experience at the Gracie Academy compared top other schools.

Also to let you know the Gracie Academy does not waste there class time either doing jumping jacks, doing laps, situps, etc., just in case you thought they did.

I agree with you that the Gracie Academy does not have any NHB or JJ Champions. But if you measure a schools success and quality of instruction that is given to students by how many pro fighters thay have, then thats a pretty ignorant way of thinking.

As for the Gracie Academy I know for a fact that alot of the students are very good in JJ. Just to let you know I no longer train at the Gracie Academy, I now train somewhere els, so the excuse that im brainwashed by Rorion can't be used.

[KenJeet]

All I know is that a couple of months ago I posted a question asking forum members for their recommendations on who to train Brazilian Jiujitsu with in Miami. The most common response was "If you want to learn the best technically sound jiujitsu you should look up Pedro Valente." Mind you, this advise came from people that train under various camps. In addition, I remember their being some poll on the internet that ranked, based on overall opinion, the top rated instructors of Brazilian Jiujitsu. I am happy to say that Pedro Valente was in the top 10. I was initially considering the "Conan" Silveira Academy in Miami, but got a little disillusioned when people started telling me that he is not the most technical guy out there. Furthermore, I attended various mixed martial arts events in Miami in which "Conan's" students competed primarily against Bart Vale's crew of fighters, and was not totally convinced. It seemed that as much as "Conan's" fighters considered Bart's crew to be weak on the ground and not technical, they seemed to pretty much fight to a draw in every match. Just this last weekend, The Free-Style Fighting Championship was held in Miami. I can honestly say that the most impressive fighter was the winner of the Middle Weight Division, a Gracie Jiujitsu purple belt under Pedro Valente. He beat two extremely strong fighters with a Kimura lock and a mata leao. I truly believe that just because no students are competing in NHB events, or sport jiujitsu matches doesn't mean that they do not have the capacity to. All schools have their periods in which they are loaded with fighters that are willing to fight and periods where the well runs dry.