wrestling/bjj, finesse?

[danfaggella]

Is it me or is there far more finesse in jujitsu?

If so, or if not, why?

Just looking for some perspective.

[treehugger]

Originally Posted by danfaggella

Is it me or is there far more finesse in jujitsu?

If so, or if not, why?

Just looking for some perspective.

jujitsu on its own looks more fluid than wrestling. IMHO, the two should be combined for maximum efficiency. Wrestling takedowns and positioning are not pretty sometimes, but they work. Then comes the slick jujitsu techs... perfect together.

[TechniqueFreak]

I don't know that much about wrestling, but from what I've seen BJJ seems more graceful and less reliant on strength. Having said that, though, I think certain wrestling takedowns can be pretty damn graceful when applied by someone skilled. (I hate it when people just latch onto my sleeve/collars, and reef around on me to no avail.)
Here's a somewhat far-out theory of mine as to why the two arts developed the way they did. Picture in your mind the prototype wrestler...Square jaw, broad shoulders, narrow waist, medium thickness to the limbs--definitely a mesormorph body type. Now, picture the prototype BJJ practitioner...narrow face, narrow shoulders, narrow waist, w/long, thin limbs--an ectomorph. Guys with the mesomorph body are always especially strong, and their personalities tend to be forward and aggressive. Conversely, ectos are known for hair-trigger reflexes and precise movements. They usually come off as nervous, cerebral intelligent people. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that there aren't exceptions to this general rule, but I am making a statement about natural tendencies that seem to exist.
Strong-guy wrestlers use their power, because it works. Thus, they never really need to develop their finesse. Carlos and Helio Gracie, esp. Helio, were skinny guys who needed to be able to counterract those with superior strength. The only choice for them was to make finesse the primary aspect of their fighting method.

[Bjjexpertise@be]

Strong-guy wrestlers use their power, because it works. Thus, they never really need to develop their finesse. Carlos and Helio Gracie, esp. Helio, were skinny guys who needed to be able to counterract those with superior strength. The only choice for them was to make finesse the primary aspect of their fighting method

That's a common misconception. As a wrestler, regardless of how strong you are, need to develop their finesse. The crisper and better you execute your technique, the less energy you'll spend in the long run. In the aggressive game of wrestling, every ounce of energy you spend is important considering it all comes down to who tires out first.
And like techniquefreak said, many takedowns executed by wrestlers with good technique are quite beautiful to see. To me, the most interesting part of any grappling match is the free-movement/neutral phase. I love to watch grapplers who explode/glide into a takedown and executing it perfectly.

[jubaji]

Originally Posted by TechniqueFreak

Here's a somewhat far-out theory of mine as to why the two arts developed the way they did. Picture in your mind the prototype wrestler...Square jaw, broad shoulders, narrow waist, medium thickness to the limbs--definitely a mesormorph body type. Now, picture the prototype BJJ practitioner...narrow face, narrow shoulders, narrow waist, w/long, thin limbs--an ectomorph. Guys with the mesomorph body are always especially strong, and their personalities tend to be forward and aggressive. Conversely, ectos are known for hair-trigger reflexes and precise movements. They usually come off as nervous, cerebral intelligent people. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that there aren't exceptions to this general rule, but I am making a statement about natural tendencies that seem to exist.
Strong-guy wrestlers use their power, because it works. Thus, they never really need to develop their finesse. Carlos and Helio Gracie, esp. Helio, were skinny guys who needed to be able to counterract those with superior strength. The only choice for them was to make finesse the primary aspect of their fighting method.

I think your "far out" theory is a bit too far out.

[Clooneytkd]

the reason theres a difference is simple. wrestling is harder. jujitsu, you can fall on your back and let the guy get on top of you, you barely move at times sometimes laying there motionless. in wrestling your constantly moving no matter what, every position you are using force and trying to get your opponet on his back. its alot harder than it seems to someone who hasnt wrestled before. for example try throwing someone down then forcing them to there back, when there trying to do the same to you, equally if not harder than you are. not only do you need strength, but you need technique and speed. the other guy could be stronger than you, thats why wrestling at times looks "less gracefull," because theres a struggle. thats when strength at times dosnt even matter. you get his arm in a pump handle, or get him in a hammer lock strength dosnt really help you out. now when your talking about grace, theres plenty. if you were to go to a tournament and see the first seed guy go against the last, you would see some sweet moves, most of whitch you had never seen before, with plenty of grace. not all wrestlers look like buff freaks, although there are some, most have the body of bruce lee, because theres less weight training involved. the emphasis is more on technique and speed. the gracies are the way they are because one, there little brazilians, and two they dont lift weights. they lay on there backs and work on joint locks. they training emphasizes on mostly technique and speed. plus they dont eat at your friendly burger king, sit on theres asses all day and play videogames

[danfaggella]

Thats the thing, I wrestle, though I'm mainly a grappler and this is my 2nd year wrestling. I gotta get myself some finesse moves, single-legs and stuff. I wanna work on wreslting skills in wrestling that will transfer to grappling (especially LEGS and TAKEDOWNS). Is throwing legs and single-leg takedowns finesse related rather than strenth oriented (like doubles and other meaty moves)?

[IPON]

Originally Posted by Bjjexpertise@be

That's a common misconception. As a wrestler, regardless of how strong you are, need to develop their finesse. The crisper and better you execute your technique, the less energy you'll spend in the long run. In the aggressive game of wrestling, every ounce of energy you spend is important considering it all comes down to who tires out first.
And like techniquefreak said, many takedowns executed by wrestlers with good technique are quite beautiful to see. To me, the most interesting part of any grappling match is the free-movement/neutral phase. I love to watch grapplers who explode/glide into a takedown and executing it perfectly.

BJJ - Kudos!!! Now you are sounding like a wreslter. Proud of you man!!!

Hey Jubaji (sniff-sniif) it seemed like only yesterday BJJ couldn't tell the difference between a guillotine and a front head like (sigh) they grow up so fast

[IPON]

Originally Posted by danfaggella

Thats the thing, I wrestle, though I'm mainly a grappler and this is my 2nd year wrestling. I gotta get myself some finesse moves, single-legs and stuff. I wanna work on wreslting skills in wrestling that will transfer to grappling (especially LEGS and TAKEDOWNS). Is throwing legs and single-leg takedowns finesse related rather than strenth oriented (like doubles and other meaty moves)?

danfaggella - remember its all grappling it automatically tranfers to your BJJ or Judo or Sambo etc becuase you are developing a sesitivity for garppling. Strength is important but technique is more important. What you strive for is solid technique with strength. What actually happens is you have some muscle heads who know one or two techniques and get by but not at high levels in HS and certainly not in college. I remember this match of super HWs (Jubaji you may remember this) I for get the schools I think Iowa and I don't know. Anyway the one HWT weight 500lbs the other ~250. Guess who won, you guessed it the 250 lb wrestler. The finesse will come when you master the technique not before so just work hard and you will be fine.

[danfaggella]

Thanks man, I'm really trying to get my single leg gingerly, real quick and smooth, I think singles and graceful, plus they work better for slightly less muscular fellows.

[Clooneytkd]

also try working on the set up, its about as important as the single leg itself

[danfaggella]

True, very true. I think I need to ask fro some advise and get to wrestling live, working on my strategy and technique.

[Bjjexpertise@be]

BJJ - Kudos!!! Now you are sounding like a wreslter. Proud of you man!!!

Hey Jubaji (sniff-sniif) it seemed like only yesterday BJJ couldn't tell the difference between a guillotine and a front head like (sigh) they grow up so fast

. Thanks pops. I was the son you never had and you guys are like the additional old senile father figures in my life. Together we are complete.


Clooney is quite right. The most important thing in a takedown is the setup. Ask the more experience wrestlers in your team to show you some set ups for takedowns. My personal favorite is the armdrag. It's fairly easy to get and if you execute it right, very rewarding.

[jubaji]

Originally Posted by IPON

BJJ - Kudos!!! Now you are sounding like a wreslter. Proud of you man!!!

Hey Jubaji (sniff-sniif) it seemed like only yesterday BJJ couldn't tell the difference between a guillotine and a front head like (sigh) they grow up so fast

The cats and the cradle and the silver spoon, da-da-da-da-something-soon...

...when you comin' home, I don't know when, da-da-da-da-then...something, something...

[Tom Yum]

I've grappled a little as a wrestler and in BJJ. Both do a great deal of conditioning in terms of cardio and stamina, but wrestlers work more on explosive power. The reason being in freestyle for example, points are awarded by how impressive the takedown is (did you get your opponents legs up and over or just up?). In Greco, you are not allowed to touch your opponents legs, so upperbody strength, power and technique are good things.

To get the most points on the takedown, you have to exert more work. The work is not gone to waste, because your opponent hits the ground at the height you brought him.

Wrestling, from my experience is more active whereas BJJ is more passive. This is a pretty broad generalization, because there are exceptions; you have BJJ guys who are stocky and very active or wrestlers who are thin and more strategic.

Both arts are technical, meaning that technique is important.

For example, the fireman's carry takedown in freestyle requires speed in getting that leg and coordination - being like a pouring 'teapot' when you pull the arm and sweep up the leg. Also you've got to set it up because your opponent may sprawl or get ahold of your head and cross face you...

Likewise, pulling a guard sweep is very technical seeing that you have to underhook your opponents arm and sweep it while your knee is planted into the midsection and your hips roll you over and ontop. It can be done somewhat slowly as long as you have good position.

Both techniques can work against bigger and stronger partners, because technique affords leverage. Still wrestling seems more active and BJJ passive. Its not a discussion of finesse, since both arts require good technique above all else.

Honestly, I'm not that great of a grappler so that's my $0.02.