wheres the "soul" in combat sports

[Garland]

it depends...the people that tend to be going for the "tough" approach spend more time in the weight room, and almost never become technicians.

BJJ guys...it's there, look at their art...it is artful, and precise.
Muay Thai-we gottttttt sooooooouuuuullllll and we supa bad. Ram muay anyone???
ibid for the rest of it too...boxing is hella spiritual. (Yeah, I said hella. Stella. Panella. Frangella-ic-a...with milk and vodka.)

Just like any other martial art, the spiritual development of combat sports are up to the individual...and the majority of shit talking MMA guys...is probably bolstered by the money making, and political side of it...get a good contract...act like boxers or even fake wrestlers by talking trash and creating a public persona.

[EmptyneSs]

Originally Posted by Garland

iJust like any other martial art, the spiritual development of combat sports are up to the individual...and the majority of shit talking MMA guys...is probably bolstered by the money making, and political side of it...get a good contract...act like boxers or even fake wrestlers by talking trash and creating a public persona.

this is true, look at tito ortiz. wether u like him or not, everyoe knows him now and his persona and antics in the ring are what made him huge. it puts the spotlight on you, and people will notice you. the ufc loves this, dont you see all these promos before ufc ppv events were they show clips of the fighters talking smack about eachother?

as for people in the gym, you cant tell off looks. ive fought slobs and skinny weaklings who could fight well, and big buff guys who were afriad to death of getting hit and couldnt fight for shit. ive met people who looked intimidating that turned out to be real nice, while ive met people who seemed nice that turned out to be utter trash. yeah some people do have big egos and are dicks, but there are also alot of people who may be thrown into this catagory just because of their appearance. mabye you dont like their hair(like danfagella) or what they are wearing so you judge them immediately, but they end up being a real nice person. i mean, if u show up to were dan trains at, i hope your haircut is one he approves and i hope you dont have any tattoos, otherwise he may not train you. he will catagorize you as a thug or someone who just got out of prison even though he may not even know you.

back to watching mma, ive mentioned this before as well, some of you act as if you are watching an academic debate or something. its a prize fight. of course people are going to act tough and talk shit. thats the whole point, its a fight. these people arent there to be nice to eachother, they are there to beat the shit of eachother so people and companies can make money off them. if this is too much for your delicate senses, then there are many other events you can watch like golf or tennis that are less violent and more family oriented.

[danfaggella]

Yowzah, I mentioned a bit more about why I dislike Chuck Liddell than his hair, much much more. But anyways, I'll try not to jump too fast to conclusions, I know what you mean.

Anywho, its just a club of people who like grappling, though I and the other Dan, who as I mentioned is a blue belt, as well as the WFL lightweight champion (WFL is a NHB orgonization based out of Massachusetts, or possibly New Jersey, I'm not sure.) are the only people who are relatively technical jujitsu guys right now. There a Judo blue belt who swings by now and then, and he often shows some stuff. Anywho, I'm not calling myself some kind of qualified teacher, but I like grappling and I like teahing people, even though a few of them may just want to "kick ass ike ito ortiz" or make up for thier childhoods.

[EmptyneSs]

Originally Posted by danfaggella

Yowzah, I mentioned a bit more about why I dislike Chuck Liddell than his hair, much much more. But anyways, I'll try not to jump too fast to conclusions, I know what you mean.

Anywho, its just a club of people who like grappling, though I and the other Dan, who as I mentioned is a blue belt, as well as the WFL lightweight champion (WFL is a NHB orgonization based out of Massachusetts, or possibly New Jersey, I'm not sure.) are the only people who are relatively technical jujitsu guys right now. There a Judo blue belt who swings by now and then, and he often shows some stuff. Anywho, I'm not calling myself some kind of qualified teacher, but I like grappling and I like teahing people, even though a few of them may just want to "kick ass ike ito ortiz" or make up for thier childhoods.

btw, every person ive ever spoken to who has met tito ortiz has has only said what a nice guy he is in real life. even some of the fighters from my gym who have trained with tito have told us what a nice guy he was. who woulda thought?

[danfaggella]

Well he might be a nice fellow out of the ring, many fighters are, but he sure is an ass and a cocky showboat in the ring. He is also a bit cocky and vulgar durring many interviews I've seen, I just don't like to see that kinda stuff. If I saw Tito in person I wouldn't start ranting about his attitude, but I just don't like to see it.

[EmptyneSs]

Originally Posted by danfaggella

Well he might be a nice fellow out of the ring, many fighters are, but he sure is an ass and a cocky showboat in the ring. He is also a bit cocky and vulgar durring many interviews I've seen, I just don't like to see that kinda stuff. If I saw Tito in person I wouldn't start ranting about his attitude, but I just don't like to see it.

thats his on camera persona though. he is acting. thats all it really is. its to hype up the show, make it more interesting. pro wrestlers do the same thing. do you think the Rock walks around town flexing his biceps, talking in third person, and gets into fights and arguments with everyone he comes in contact with? no, its just an act to make their shows more interesting. thats all. thats why if you dont like this sort of thing, mabye you shouldnt watch it.

[danfaggella]

I dont watch fighting for the cool WWE-like personas. Also, I really don't watch UFC anymore anyways, though I like many UFC fighters.

I dont think that persona is necissary, plenty of fighters do well without it, I just dont watch NHB competiton for that sorta thing.

[jubaji]

Originally Posted by EmptyneSs

u sound like a nice guy who is genuinly interested in martial arts and training, and its cool that you want to help others learn, however there really should be someone with more experience teaching and supervising.

very good point.

[kiddbjj]

guys, i feel i need to interject here and say that the point of the post is that the teacher should set the "tone/atmosphere/spirit" of the school through his/her actions, speech and expectations.

i agree that its up to the individual to do the right thing but using the example of the military again there is an obvious expectation as to whats appropriate behaviour/attitude during training. at least in the military if you don't comply they kick you out.

last night i was thinking about the old style schools where you had to prove your loyalty, dedication and humility by spending a few months (even years) enduring boring or repetative training before being accepted as worthy of learning the real system. so many of us take for granted the fact that we can pay our fees and then have someone teach us how to hurt and possibly even kill other people. a basic rear naked choke could kill someone yet as long as you pay your tuition you will probably learn the technique in the first week of training. this means that ANYONE, regardless of morals or character can leave class with skills they might not be entitled to have for the safety of the community. i have stressed this point before that i think BJJ is probably the most dangerous skill that a rapist could have. so how do we ensure that people of low character or criminals are not learning these effective skills.

i seriously think that people should have to prove themselves before being taught. in my old kung fu school i spent basically the first year only doing forms and plenty of repetitious and painful fitness work before they even began teaching me how to punch/kick/throw properly. the idea was that if i stuck with it then they could check me out and get to know me. there were plenty of others that become agitated and even hostile about the training and eventually left. did they have good character? i dont know, but all the people who stayed were pretty cool, humble, and friendly people that didnt mind putting in the effort to reap the reward down the track.

should we have to earn the right to learn our ma or is that idea outdated in our free market democracy?

[kiddbjj]

well? should we?

[Garland]

I don't know how to sugar coat this, so I'll give it to you straight; get your head out of the clouds.

In our culture, everything, especially MA are commercialized. Even if the instructor or club owner is completely against it, they have to turn a profit in order to survive. Turning people away because they aren't dedicated, etc...is not condusive to survival.

MA schools fall into the following categories;
1)towards a quick fix, instant gratification deal (McDojo's)
2)fighters gyms
3)self defense studios
4)niche markets

both 2 and 4 are the only ones where you have to dedicate yourself to training if you want to go someplace in the art...the rest is just fuckin' jive.

[cam427]

Dude,

I have trained at the SBG (or with SBG instructors) and they do have the philosophy you are looking for. There are no arseholes because they are not tolerated. Everyone is looking to improve themselves in terms of performance and also as a person through pushing beyond the limits they believed they could achieve.

The gym founder has a degree in philosophy. Go look at the website and see if there is one near you (they are everywhere now). Try it out. You will not look back.

www.straightblastgym.com

Cam

[Drag'n]

kidbbjj,
I know exactly what you mean!
I was training at a MMA school for a while, but I just couldnt handle the lack of discipline and soul. The teacher was a top ranking Japanese shoot fighter. Tough as hell and good at what he does, but as a person, just a complete idiot. Always showing off and talking big. Although I enjoyed learning the techniques, I found there was a very different mindset in the typical fighter, compared with the values of traditional martial artists.
I'm not saying all MMArtists are assholes or anything. But I also feel that there is a serious lack of character development in some of these kinds of schools.
Sure there are alot of fighters who are really nice guys and even good moral people. But its more because they were that way to begin with rather than something they gained from their training.
I agree that its dangerous and irresponsible to go teaching any punk off the street dangerous fighting skills without first building their character and instilling a certain level of values and respect into them.People who teach MA souly for the purpose of making a buck are a disgrace, and a danger to our society. These kinds of clubs are putting dangerous thugs on the street with very lethal fighting skills.
So is my head in the clouds too?
Well I'd rather have it there, than in the trash.
I ended up finding a MA called Daidojuku which is like a MMA version of Kyokushin, which had the traditional mindset and values combined with modern training methods and open mindedness of MMA. For me the perfect MA.
But I dont think there are many Dojos outside Japan and Eastern Europe yet.
I still train at a kickboxing gym a couple of days a week, and I have friends who are kickboxers and MMA fighters. So I'm not out to bash ring fighters. I just have a difference in the outlook of them with regards to certain aspects of training. Its something that training at their gyms just couldn't fulfill, and they just couldnt understand. So I dont bother trying to make them understand my beliefs. I just try to enjoy the training as much as I can and learn from their strengths.

[jubaji]

Originally Posted by cam427

The gym founder has a degree in philosophy.

Oh, well he must be super deep then!

[tigerofironfist]

Those who know do not speak.
Those who speak do not know.