Karate, can anyone tell me its a useless martial art - Page 2

Mr. Miyagi · 01-23-2001, 10:22 PM

99% of all karate, tkd, and gung fu that are practiced in the states is useless crap. Anyone who says otherwise is selling something, like perhaps, useless classes.

kenpo-power · 01-23-2001, 10:45 PM

OK I submit to the notion that BJJ is the GREATEST, NO NOT REALLY! I guess that all of the masters that have come to this country are frauds, and should learn ju-jitsu. Or better yet, maybe they should make up a stage name and fight in the WWF's sister show the UFC.

gungfuhero · 01-23-2001, 11:57 PM

At our school, almost everyone (including several of our top Thai Boxing students the Jun Fan/Kali guys, several of the gapplers and all who are into MMA) has experienced a traditional martial art. Karate isn't inferior; most karate exponents just train badly (little to no sparring, no resistance, overuse of kata and lack of athletecism.).

TKD sucks until you get your ass knocked out my a round kick.
JiuJitsu sucks until you get choked out.
Boxing sucks until you sublux your jaw.
Trapping doesn't work until you've been eaten a straight blast after getting your arms tied into a knot.

Whtown · 01-24-2001, 01:08 AM

Kenpo-Power, I have never had my ass kicked by a karate or any traditional martial art expert. I have gave some ass whippings before and i have droped a karate instructor before. and i would drop you.

kenpo-power · 01-24-2001, 02:07 AM

yeah yeah yeah my style is better than your style. blah blah blah

Mata-Leão · 01-24-2001, 03:12 AM

I agree with those who say that no martial art is useless. However, not all martial arts have equal value, and the descrepancy between arts isn't due entirely to lack of realistic training.

I studied Wado-Ryu Karate-Do for 12 years before I began to train in BJJ. Obviously, during that time I obtained my black belt. Moreover, I was one of my instructors best students, and I even did some instructing myself. I have also fought in both point tournaments and full-contact. So, I have a good perspective on the effectiveness of karate.

The truth is that no matter how much resistance one uses in training, a pure stand-up martial art is still missing the point. As long as you insist on rules that force competitors to remain at each others' optimal striking distance, you instill in them the misconception that striking is more effective than it really is.

Stad-up striking definitely has its place in MMA, but not without healhty doses of grappling as its foundation. In my opinion, pure karate-type (or boxing-, or kickboxing-type) stand-up striking is still only a fraction of the skills necessary to be a successful fighter.

Moreover, the fact remains that a pure striker will almost always lose to a pure grappler, all other things being equal (i.e. equal athletic ability, strength, size, # of years of training, etc.)

It is a gross oversimplification to say that karate would become as effective as BJJ if its practitioners simply trained with more resistence.

[Edited by Mata-Leão on 01-23-2001 at 10:15 PM]

ironsheik · 01-24-2001, 03:55 AM

Ninjitsu is the deadliest martial art in the world.My master Ashida Kim has severly beaten and maimed black belts from every origin.Arguing against Ninjitsu is futile.

SweepEm · 01-24-2001, 04:02 AM

sounds like the Borg:

RESISTANCE IS FUTILE

Hey, aren't those a species of mindless people controlled by one Empresses, traveling around in a cube?

HA!

Beck2001 · 01-24-2001, 04:24 AM

Karate TKD etc... in my opinion can actually do more harm than good. I've seen many a person take TKD, Karate, (hell some have even consisdered Tae-Bo a self defence martial art!!) and think they are invincible. Sadly, the opposite is true. With that kind of thinking people can actually get hurt. TKD, and the others I believe are nothing more than a commercialized sport. I have taken TKD and at blue belt realized that it is very limited in actual practical self-defence by itself. I realized that first time i stepped in a Braziailn Jiu-jitsu school. To me jui-jitsu is more practical for self-defence, and can dominate any other martial art. Mix grappling with basicv moves from TKD, Kartae etc.. and youll be more prepared in a fight. Bottom line, if it aint grappling, it aint shit.

01-24-2001, 06:16 AM

Hawk:

You've never seen a useless martial art?

What about Joe Son Do?

Bau13 · 01-24-2001, 06:54 AM

As we all know...Crosstraining is the key ...I wouldn't say those arts are useless...wouldn't it be cool to see a well crosstrained TKD/Wrestler?......

Nthman · 01-24-2001, 04:31 PM

I don't think that as a blue belt in TKD one can really determine whether or not the art is effective..the gup ranks are the BEGINNING ranks. 1st Dan is where you start to make what you know effective, yeah there are crappy black belts but in general I think people assume, "oh I am a belt I should be X good...unless you are an amazing blue belt...to be good at ANYTHING takes a long time..I get annoyed when people train for like 6 months then quit saying its crap without really understanding or being able to perform with skill. Besides, there is a lot more to martial arts besides street defense..if you want that either never go out or wear a bulletproof vest and carry a gun even then you can't control all possible outcomes.

Yee haw!

Beck2001 · 01-24-2001, 08:20 PM

What I'm sayin is a lot of people enter martial arts for self-defence, then after a while, they get it in their heads they are invincible. I've seen a lot of fights start out from some blathering idiot saying he knows karate, then pretty soon, he's proved wrong. What exactly does someone mean they know karate? You don't know any martial art until you've attained the highest pinnacle their is in that art, and even then your not done.
Some martial arts are better than others in certain ways. Their is certainly more spiritual fulfilling in a kung fu or tai chi class than their is in a BJJ one! If that is what you are after thats great, no one can argue. If you want a more sport oriented art, than TKD is an option. But, just don't think u can use one art and one art alone for street self-defence. (By street I mean anything outside a school). Knowing one art is better than none, cross-training is even better, avoiding a fight altogether, and you never lose.

gungfuhero · 01-25-2001, 04:58 AM

With the exception of MMA atheletes, most sport oriented martial artists are missing the point and run into problems durring a fight sans rules. How many times have you been grappling in your BJJ class with a "purist" and seen opening after opening for striking. Conversely, think of how many times you could have taken a "pure" boxer to the ground and finished it when the game is limited to punching. Sport is sport. Take it for what it is. Uselessness is subjective.

macdawg · 01-25-2001, 07:22 AM

"Karate isn't inferior; most karate exponents just train badly (little to no sparring, no resistance, overuse of kata and lack of athletecism" I agree with gungfuhero. Tough Karate schools exist in the world and they produce tough strikers. On the other hand, 99% of Karate schools that I know of have little training relavant to fighting.

01-23-2001, 10:45 PM	#17 (permalink)
kenpo-power Novice Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 36 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	OK I submit to the notion that BJJ is the GREATEST, NO NOT REALLY! I guess that all of the masters that have come to this country are frauds, and should learn ju-jitsu. Or better yet, maybe they should make up a stage name and fight in the WWF's sister show the UFC. __________________ Train like the tiger, but live like the dragon.

01-24-2001, 02:07 AM	#20 (permalink)
kenpo-power Novice Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 36 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	yeah yeah yeah my style is better than your style. blah blah blah __________________ Train like the tiger, but live like the dragon.

01-24-2001, 06:54 AM	#26 (permalink)
Bau13 Novice Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 390 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	As we all know...Crosstraining is the key ...I wouldn't say those arts are useless...wouldn't it be cool to see a well crosstrained TKD/Wrestler?...... __________________ Everything happens for a reason...

01-24-2001, 04:31 PM	#27 (permalink)
Nthman Registered User Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Saint Paul,MN Posts: 68 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	I don't think that as a blue belt in TKD one can really determine whether or not the art is effective..the gup ranks are the BEGINNING ranks. 1st Dan is where you start to make what you know effective, yeah there are crappy black belts but in general I think people assume, "oh I am a belt I should be X good...unless you are an amazing blue belt...to be good at ANYTHING takes a long time..I get annoyed when people train for like 6 months then quit saying its crap without really understanding or being able to perform with skill. Besides, there is a lot more to martial arts besides street defense..if you want that either never go out or wear a bulletproof vest and carry a gun even then you can't control all possible outcomes. Yee haw! __________________ "A punch is just a punch, a kick just a kick."

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01-23-2001, 10:22 PM	#16 (permalink)
Mr. Miyagi Registered User Join Date: Oct 2000 Posts: 719 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	99% of all karate, tkd, and gung fu that are practiced in the states is useless crap. Anyone who says otherwise is selling something, like perhaps, useless classes.

01-23-2001, 11:57 PM	#18 (permalink)
gungfuhero Registered User Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Bloomington IN Posts: 317 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	At our school, almost everyone (including several of our top Thai Boxing students the Jun Fan/Kali guys, several of the gapplers and all who are into MMA) has experienced a traditional martial art. Karate isn't inferior; most karate exponents just train badly (little to no sparring, no resistance, overuse of kata and lack of athletecism.). TKD sucks until you get your ass knocked out my a round kick. JiuJitsu sucks until you get choked out. Boxing sucks until you sublux your jaw. Trapping doesn't work until you've been eaten a straight blast after getting your arms tied into a knot.

01-24-2001, 01:08 AM	#19 (permalink)
Whtown Novice Join Date: Nov 2000 Posts: 32 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Kenpo-Power, I have never had my ass kicked by a karate or any traditional martial art expert. I have gave some ass whippings before and i have droped a karate instructor before. and i would drop you.

01-24-2001, 03:12 AM	#21 (permalink)
Mata-Leão Novice Join Date: Oct 2000 Posts: 14 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	I agree with those who say that no martial art is useless. However, not all martial arts have equal value, and the descrepancy between arts isn't due entirely to lack of realistic training. I studied Wado-Ryu Karate-Do for 12 years before I began to train in BJJ. Obviously, during that time I obtained my black belt. Moreover, I was one of my instructors best students, and I even did some instructing myself. I have also fought in both point tournaments and full-contact. So, I have a good perspective on the effectiveness of karate. The truth is that no matter how much resistance one uses in training, a pure stand-up martial art is still missing the point. As long as you insist on rules that force competitors to remain at each others' optimal striking distance, you instill in them the misconception that striking is more effective than it really is. Stad-up striking definitely has its place in MMA, but not without healhty doses of grappling as its foundation. In my opinion, pure karate-type (or boxing-, or kickboxing-type) stand-up striking is still only a fraction of the skills necessary to be a successful fighter. Moreover, the fact remains that a pure striker will almost always lose to a pure grappler, all other things being equal (i.e. equal athletic ability, strength, size, # of years of training, etc.) It is a gross oversimplification to say that karate would become as effective as BJJ if its practitioners simply trained with more resistence. [Edited by Mata-Leão on 01-23-2001 at 10:15 PM]

01-24-2001, 03:55 AM	#22 (permalink)
ironsheik Novice Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: tokyo Posts: 3 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ninjitsu is the deadliest martial art in the world.My master Ashida Kim has severly beaten and maimed black belts from every origin.Arguing against Ninjitsu is futile.

01-24-2001, 04:02 AM	#23 (permalink)
SweepEm Master Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 2,846 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	sounds like the Borg: RESISTANCE IS FUTILE Hey, aren't those a species of mindless people controlled by one Empresses, traveling around in a cube? HA!

01-24-2001, 04:24 AM	#24 (permalink)
Beck2001 Novice Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 2 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Karate TKD etc... in my opinion can actually do more harm than good. I've seen many a person take TKD, Karate, (hell some have even consisdered Tae-Bo a self defence martial art!!) and think they are invincible. Sadly, the opposite is true. With that kind of thinking people can actually get hurt. TKD, and the others I believe are nothing more than a commercialized sport. I have taken TKD and at blue belt realized that it is very limited in actual practical self-defence by itself. I realized that first time i stepped in a Braziailn Jiu-jitsu school. To me jui-jitsu is more practical for self-defence, and can dominate any other martial art. Mix grappling with basicv moves from TKD, Kartae etc.. and youll be more prepared in a fight. Bottom line, if it aint grappling, it aint shit.

01-24-2001, 06:16 AM	#25 (permalink)
Ronin Guest Posts: n/a	Hawk: You've never seen a useless martial art? What about Joe Son Do?

01-24-2001, 08:20 PM	#28 (permalink)
Beck2001 Novice Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 2 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	What I'm sayin is a lot of people enter martial arts for self-defence, then after a while, they get it in their heads they are invincible. I've seen a lot of fights start out from some blathering idiot saying he knows karate, then pretty soon, he's proved wrong. What exactly does someone mean they know karate? You don't know any martial art until you've attained the highest pinnacle their is in that art, and even then your not done. Some martial arts are better than others in certain ways. Their is certainly more spiritual fulfilling in a kung fu or tai chi class than their is in a BJJ one! If that is what you are after thats great, no one can argue. If you want a more sport oriented art, than TKD is an option. But, just don't think u can use one art and one art alone for street self-defence. (By street I mean anything outside a school). Knowing one art is better than none, cross-training is even better, avoiding a fight altogether, and you never lose.

01-25-2001, 04:58 AM	#29 (permalink)
gungfuhero Registered User Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Bloomington IN Posts: 317 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	With the exception of MMA atheletes, most sport oriented martial artists are missing the point and run into problems durring a fight sans rules. How many times have you been grappling in your BJJ class with a "purist" and seen opening after opening for striking. Conversely, think of how many times you could have taken a "pure" boxer to the ground and finished it when the game is limited to punching. Sport is sport. Take it for what it is. Uselessness is subjective.

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01-25-2001, 07:22 AM	#30 (permalink)
macdawg Novice Join Date: Nov 2000 Posts: 56 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	"Karate isn't inferior; most karate exponents just train badly (little to no sparring, no resistance, overuse of kata and lack of athletecism" I agree with gungfuhero. Tough Karate schools exist in the world and they produce tough strikers. On the other hand, 99% of Karate schools that I know of have little training relavant to fighting.