And the downward spiral begins. . . .

medic06 · 04-25-2006, 08:54 AM

http://www.thegrapplingblueprint.com...21BU6PR9CF5EKK

SamuraiGuy · 04-25-2006, 09:38 AM

Actually the downward spiral begin awhile ago.... Things like this have been popping up for the past 6 months at least anyway.

The point is, you have documentation of who gets what rank from who in BJJ. BJJ.org is a good reference but admittedly doesnt have anybody.

While this Lloyd Irvin may be the real deal, I doubt anyone is gonna actually recieve a high rank from him just from learning on his tapes. If they do, everyone will just assume anyone in the Lloyd Irvin lineage is shit.

There is one name all the BJJ lineage should go back too, Gracie, or more particularly Helio Gracie. (or before I get jumped on by some judo people, Maeda).

Thats the difference between a karate or kung fu, where I can say (hypotehtically) my teacher was instructed by the great Wong Ni Chu, the greatest grandmaster of all eagle claw kung fu. And who's gonna have records proving me wrong. (watch there actually be records).

Or I can say my teacher is a student of Romero Jacare Calvacanti, whos a blackbelt under Rolls Gracie whos a blackbelt under...

medic06 · 04-25-2006, 09:57 AM

This is where it starts. Just like in Karate, Kung Fu, and Korean systems suddenly you are going to have charlatens popping claiming false lineage or lineage from other sources. Most lay people can't tell the difference between BJJ and other groundfighting systems (including those which are total fabrications). Before you know it you have schools with BJJ on them which totally suck. them the reputation of the system gets trashed.

eXcessiveForce · 04-25-2006, 09:58 AM

in reality it doesn't matter what rank you hold or who you got it from. It's all about how well you know the material and can perform.

You may have got your dan rank from a real life gracie, but if a white belt taps you it doesn't matter one bit. You still tapped.

medic06 · 04-25-2006, 10:14 AM

EF, you are exactly right. When rank becomes more important than the training, then the martial art begins to fall apart.

danfaggella · 04-25-2006, 11:53 AM

Or the legitimacy of it does. Its the McDojo way of promoting people quick so they can brag about thier belt, while the valids skills in competition and self defense are secondairy.

Who are there fruits who got interviewed to promote this crap? Some of them are decent grapplers apparently, but they didn't aquire all that from some online lessons.

THE GUY EVEN WANTS YOUR HOME ADDRESS! Apparently to send free stuff, but thats BS, I don't know what he wants it for.

This kind of shit is going to shame grappling, and it certianly deminishes my respect for anyone who gets paid to say "Ugggh, yeah these online lessons made me a world champion..."

**Thai Bri** · 04-25-2006, 12:28 PM

Ryan Hall is on that page. He's an ex Moderator here, and an all round good guy. If he says theres something in it, then I reckon there's something in it.

Tom Yum · 04-25-2006, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thai Bri

Ryan Hall is on that page. He's an ex Moderator here, and an all round good guy. If he says theres something in it, then I reckon there's something in it.

Miss the guy. Spanky too.

**Thai Bri** · 04-25-2006, 12:44 PM

Hey Yes! What fun we had.

True wit, instead of the poor clas trolling....

muaythaiguy15 · 04-25-2006, 05:09 PM

I dont think itll get bad as karate or TKD. If a bad BJJ instructor is there, and he grapples a student and loses, he loses credibility. Karate instructors never fight thier students (i believe for this reason)

danfaggella · 04-25-2006, 05:18 PM

If he teaches them crap then they will be crappy as well.

danfaggella · 04-26-2006, 04:11 PM

Why are all of these phenominal grapplers and combat sport athletes saying such great things about this course?

It seems so evangelistic and cheesey, it seems like bullshit commercialization, and money for Lloyd Irvin.

I shot him my email address and I think I will get a few free email or something from his little site, I have no idea why this would be so ground breaking, it appears to be an increadible scam.

I'll have to read the stuff and get back to you guys.

Penance · 04-27-2006, 12:44 AM

I don't believe that if my teacher loses to a student that he loses credibility.

Unless he consistantly loses. Over and over. Or makes himself out to be something he's not.

Everyone gets lucky once in awhile, and I respect a teacher who gets beaten and has the balls to acknowledge that he/she is not perfect. I wouldn't respect a teacher that loses and gets angry, or isn't interested in figuring out his or her mistake and correcting it, though.

I also respect teachers that don't use 100% of their ability when fighting everyone, but instead feed things to students so the student can get better. If the consequence of that is an occasional loss to a student who gets lucky or improves, then so be it.

Penance · 04-27-2006, 12:54 AM

In any case: if it sounds too good to be true, it is. Not probably. IT IS.

Like others have said, skill level and rank are not correlated. There are so many other things to consider: other grappling experience, natural ability, physical size, strength, and dimensions. And on and on and on.

Since there is no unified system for determining rank, rank is meaningless except as a guide post for you to use during your training.

Some people award rank based on competition performance. Some do it based on "time served." Some base it on number of techniques known, proficiency, conduct, or contribution to the art and community.

In some ways I see rank as a handicap. When I got a few stripes as a white belt I suddenly felt I had to prove myself against newbies or people with fewer stripes. A loss to someone with fewer stripes was an embarassment to me. Then I smartened up. First of all, stripes mean nothing, a white belt is a white belt. By extension, belt color means nothing.

My advice is to always do your best, and strive to be better than you were the day before. Constantly improve and don't worry about what color you have around your waist or who you've lost to.

Kungfoolery · 04-28-2006, 11:24 AM

If you're going to teach bad BJJ just call it Submission "Something." (submission fighting, submission wrestling or some such generic term.)

04-25-2006, 08:54 AM	#1 (permalink)
medic06 Registered User Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,028	And the downward spiral begins. . . . http://www.thegrapplingblueprint.com...21BU6PR9CF5EKK

04-25-2006, 09:38 AM	#2 (permalink)
SamuraiGuy Registered User Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 1,865	Actually the downward spiral begin awhile ago.... Things like this have been popping up for the past 6 months at least anyway. The point is, you have documentation of who gets what rank from who in BJJ. BJJ.org is a good reference but admittedly doesnt have anybody. While this Lloyd Irvin may be the real deal, I doubt anyone is gonna actually recieve a high rank from him just from learning on his tapes. If they do, everyone will just assume anyone in the Lloyd Irvin lineage is shit. There is one name all the BJJ lineage should go back too, Gracie, or more particularly Helio Gracie. (or before I get jumped on by some judo people, Maeda). Thats the difference between a karate or kung fu, where I can say (hypotehtically) my teacher was instructed by the great Wong Ni Chu, the greatest grandmaster of all eagle claw kung fu. And who's gonna have records proving me wrong. (watch there actually be records). Or I can say my teacher is a student of Romero Jacare Calvacanti, whos a blackbelt under Rolls Gracie whos a blackbelt under... __________________ "a few User CP's that are pretty significant ones(like a BoarSpear or SamuraiGuy one). " - GracieHunter I choke people, I dont poke people. -- Me Were you born to resist or be abused? I swear I'll never give in, I refuse. -- Foo Fighters I want a girl that spends more time on her back than Royce Gracie. I'll knee you in the face like your name was Josh Koschek -- Me

04-25-2006, 09:58 AM	#4 (permalink)
eXcessiveForce Excessive Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Missouri Posts: 2,827	in reality it doesn't matter what rank you hold or who you got it from. It's all about how well you know the material and can perform. You may have got your dan rank from a real life gracie, but if a white belt taps you it doesn't matter one bit. You still tapped. __________________ eXcessiveFORCE. If you must use force, make it excessive.

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04-25-2006, 09:57 AM	#3 (permalink)
medic06 Registered User Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,028	This is where it starts. Just like in Karate, Kung Fu, and Korean systems suddenly you are going to have charlatens popping claiming false lineage or lineage from other sources. Most lay people can't tell the difference between BJJ and other groundfighting systems (including those which are total fabrications). Before you know it you have schools with BJJ on them which totally suck. them the reputation of the system gets trashed.

04-25-2006, 10:14 AM	#5 (permalink)
medic06 Registered User Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,028	EF, you are exactly right. When rank becomes more important than the training, then the martial art begins to fall apart.

04-25-2006, 11:53 AM	#6 (permalink)
danfaggella Registered User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Kingston RI Posts: 1,089	Or the legitimacy of it does. Its the McDojo way of promoting people quick so they can brag about thier belt, while the valids skills in competition and self defense are secondairy. Who are there fruits who got interviewed to promote this crap? Some of them are decent grapplers apparently, but they didn't aquire all that from some online lessons. THE GUY EVEN WANTS YOUR HOME ADDRESS! Apparently to send free stuff, but thats BS, I don't know what he wants it for. This kind of shit is going to shame grappling, and it certianly deminishes my respect for anyone who gets paid to say "Ugggh, yeah these online lessons made me a world champion..."

04-25-2006, 12:28 PM	#7 (permalink)
Thai Bri Premiere Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 5,423	Ryan Hall is on that page. He's an ex Moderator here, and an all round good guy. If he says theres something in it, then I reckon there's something in it.

04-25-2006, 12:44 PM	#9 (permalink)
Thai Bri Premiere Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 5,423	Hey Yes! What fun we had. True wit, instead of the poor clas trolling....

04-25-2006, 05:09 PM	#10 (permalink)
muaythaiguy15 Registered User Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 275	I dont think itll get bad as karate or TKD. If a bad BJJ instructor is there, and he grapples a student and loses, he loses credibility. Karate instructors never fight thier students (i believe for this reason)

04-25-2006, 05:18 PM	#11 (permalink)
danfaggella Registered User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Kingston RI Posts: 1,089	If he teaches them crap then they will be crappy as well.

04-26-2006, 04:11 PM	#12 (permalink)
danfaggella Registered User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Kingston RI Posts: 1,089	Why are all of these phenominal grapplers and combat sport athletes saying such great things about this course? It seems so evangelistic and cheesey, it seems like bullshit commercialization, and money for Lloyd Irvin. I shot him my email address and I think I will get a few free email or something from his little site, I have no idea why this would be so ground breaking, it appears to be an increadible scam. I'll have to read the stuff and get back to you guys.

04-27-2006, 12:44 AM	#13 (permalink)
Penance Registered User Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 280	I don't believe that if my teacher loses to a student that he loses credibility. Unless he consistantly loses. Over and over. Or makes himself out to be something he's not. Everyone gets lucky once in awhile, and I respect a teacher who gets beaten and has the balls to acknowledge that he/she is not perfect. I wouldn't respect a teacher that loses and gets angry, or isn't interested in figuring out his or her mistake and correcting it, though. I also respect teachers that don't use 100% of their ability when fighting everyone, but instead feed things to students so the student can get better. If the consequence of that is an occasional loss to a student who gets lucky or improves, then so be it.

04-27-2006, 12:54 AM	#14 (permalink)
Penance Registered User Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 280	In any case: if it sounds too good to be true, it is. Not probably. IT IS. Like others have said, skill level and rank are not correlated. There are so many other things to consider: other grappling experience, natural ability, physical size, strength, and dimensions. And on and on and on. Since there is no unified system for determining rank, rank is meaningless except as a guide post for you to use during your training. Some people award rank based on competition performance. Some do it based on "time served." Some base it on number of techniques known, proficiency, conduct, or contribution to the art and community. In some ways I see rank as a handicap. When I got a few stripes as a white belt I suddenly felt I had to prove myself against newbies or people with fewer stripes. A loss to someone with fewer stripes was an embarassment to me. Then I smartened up. First of all, stripes mean nothing, a white belt is a white belt. By extension, belt color means nothing. My advice is to always do your best, and strive to be better than you were the day before. Constantly improve and don't worry about what color you have around your waist or who you've lost to.

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)

04-28-2006, 11:24 AM	#15 (permalink)
Kungfoolery Registered User Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 31	If you're going to teach bad BJJ just call it Submission "Something." (submission fighting, submission wrestling or some such generic term.)