Fight Science

[Garland]

Originally Posted by Sagacious Lu

Actually, it would be pretty cool to log like a months worth of training on one of those to see how hard your best shots landed, how lame the weakest were, and how close to the average the shots were. It would be interesting to see how consistant I was, and of course what I was doing on the most successful shots. I'm not sure if it would make a dramatic difference, but it would certainly be worth a look.

The motion capture stuff could help you gauge the best angle to keep your standing leg at, and how much to pivot and maybe to increase the angle of the standing heel, or decrease it doing a kick...or when to actually put the curve on a cut kick.

That stuff would be cool...and to see how much power you lose when you cut weight, compared to any possible gains in speed. See where the numbers are at on trade offs...and how much difference a lb of bodyweight makes in the delivery of a strike.

[Sagacious Lu]

It would def. be handy for gauging the effects of cutting weight on power.

[danfaggella]

Love the NAT GEO channel. If this is as crappy as "XMA" then so be it, but I'm expecting some more interesting and combat-valid information.

[darkrelevance]

was this show any good? i missed it.

[Garland]

Meh...so so...

Melchor Menor, Guro Inosanto, and Rickson Gracie were all on...which was awesome...
the "ninja" death hammer fist was a bit dumb (but still, I guess he must've hit damn hard, and he did have damn good balance), and the TKD guy doing test cuts with a katana seemed a bit out of place. (he wouldn't cut the same as an expert kendo or iaido practitioner, so why even bother) and they focused on alot of the flashy stuff...two wushu guys and the tkd guy, two heavy token breakers, and took all the stats from these guys who are obviously at different weights smashed their figures together.


I want to see all the numbers for all the tests on all the techniques, done at least 100 times by each person, with people of comparable weight...and THEN we can really see what up. Other than that it was fun to watch. (i.e. seeing Guro Dan hit under the scrutiny of motion capture and infrared was awesome...but the amount of force he generates with a kali stick, although awesome, is still not going to be the same as a 220lb person 40 years his junior...they should've counted number of strikes...etc.) Of course, Kali isn't meant to hit the hardest with the object, the purpose is to fight the best with it.

[Mephariel]

I agree. First of all, how is Alex Hynh a kung fu master? Does he even do real kung fu? I thought he was just a wushu partitioner.

And how can you measure the best art if all of them are not equal in height and weight and relative power?

[JKDBerlin]

Anybody know if there is a download or so on this docu?

Greetings

[grappler-jordan]

Yeah I thought the comparisons were off, and in no way realistic, however watching the motion captures on alot of the strikes was really cool. I wished they had focused less on the flashy weapons stuff and more on unarmed combat and real life scenarios.

However, the Ninjitsu guy had amazing balance, I mean honestly it was seriously impressive to watch him. Even Melchor was impressed after he tried to do the plumb blossoms and then watched that guy do it... that was something else.

[Paco]

I agree with grappler-jordan and Garland. Here are some other observations about the show:

1- Much better than the crappy XMA show on Discovery channel

2- They had the buff TKD dude hogging the limelight (trying to nab the female audience?)... really, just do your pump kicks and walk the fu*k away! It seemed as if they were stretching it having him doing the katana demo. They HAD Toshiro Obata there didn't they? WHY didn't they use him? (I thought he didn't want to subject his sword-cutting to scientific testing...anyway he didn't look too excited to be there)

3- They could've gone more in-depth in terms of damage of blows and biophysics but they didn't want to lose their (high school?) audience

4- Why didn't the capoeira guy hit anything? (Racial, man, racial!...)
They didn't have him walking the plum blossom posts either...

5- The ninja was constantly being referred to as "the ultimate warrior" although there were others who perhaps deserved that title more if we look at ACTUAL fighting (Rickson, Guro Dan, Melchor)

6- Although the tests were pretty informative, they should be looked at with a grain of salt b/c they were against stationary, non-attacking targets

All in all, an interesting show, even if you disagree with some of the findings.
i wish they had measured the power of the thai round kick (not just the knee).

[Garland]

Originally Posted by Paco

I agree with grappler-jordan and Garland. Here are some other observations about the show:

1- Much better than the crappy XMA show on Discovery channel

2- They had the buff TKD dude hogging the limelight (trying to nab the female audience?)... really, just do your pump kicks and walk the fu*k away! It seemed as if they were stretching it having him doing the katana demo. They HAD Toshiro Obata there didn't they? WHY didn't they use him? (I thought he didn't want to subject his sword-cutting to scientific testing...anyway he didn't look too excited to be there)

3- They could've gone more in-depth in terms of damage of blows and biophysics but they didn't want to lose their (high school?) audience

4- Why didn't the capoeira guy hit anything? (Racial, man, racial!...)
They didn't have him walking the plum blossom posts either...

5- The ninja was constantly being referred to as "the ultimate warrior" although there were others who perhaps deserved that title more if we look at ACTUAL fighting (Rickson, Guro Dan, Melchor)

6- Although the tests were pretty informative, they should be looked at with a grain of salt b/c they were against stationary, non-attacking targets

All in all, an interesting show, even if you disagree with some of the findings.
i wish they had measured the power of the thai round kick (not just the knee).

WERD!

[OmaPlata]

I didnt see it , but this guy on the ADCC website wrote this, and ripped it pretty hard


"National Geographic Channel's 'Fight Science' Belongs on Sci-Fi Channel
Submitted by: E.Goldman / Sr. Editor
Posted On 08/17/2006


Besides being a lifelong devotee of the combat sports, I am also a casual fan of science fiction. I liked the original 'Star Trek' series, once even bought a toy phaser, and today watch the 'Stargate' shows. While I personally find all this fairly entertaining, mostly relaxing, and once in a long while even intellectually worthwhile, when the talk turns to Vulcans, transporter beams, and the Goa'uld, I smile and know I can give my brain a needed rest.

When it comes to combat sports, however, I have little or no interest in fictional versions of them, be they in martial arts or boxing movies, or the fake pro 'wrestling'. Perhaps if I were a scientist I would feel the same way about science fiction, although that may just be a matter of taste.

What is not a matter of taste is the science itself. The combat sports and all their components have been handed down and perfected for many millennia now, since the dawn of civilization. Much confusion still remains about what works and what doesn't, largely because some people prefer to continue to sell their methods and techniques however inferior, dubious, or even exposed they may be.
Now a new documentary, entitled 'Fight Science', which debuts this Sunday, Aug. 20, on the National Geographic Channel in the U.S., claims to examine various fighting techniques using strict scientific methods. The show's press release said that it 'brings together a dream team of scientists, motion-capture specialists and CGI animators, along with a cross-section of champion martial arts masters, to analyze the world's greatest fight techniques. The tests are designed to separate fighting fact from martial arts myth and provide unprecedented insight into their astounding strengths and capabilities.'

But as Flava Flav might have put it, 'Don't believe the hype, boyeee!' Watching a screener sent to me for review only revealed a highly flawed documentary which claims to use the scientific method but instead is merely the latest in corporate TV's fascination (or quest to jump on the ratings bandwagon) with the combat sports.

The first set of tests in this documentary was supposed to measure the effectiveness of various styles of techniques. On these, they got the right answers, but more like a student who closes his eyes and randomly chooses an answer from a multiple-choice question.

The part on punching begins with a clip of a then-slender James 'Lights Out' Toney's 1991 11th-round TKO of Michael Nunn to win the IBF middleweight title (none of which is explained along with the brief footage). The documentary's narration then disses boxing by asking, ''fluke or fix?' Toney was considered at that time to be one of the best, if not the best, pound-for-pound fighters in the world at that time, and was The Ring magazine's fighter of the year that year, too.

Then various styles of punching were supposedly compared using scientific measurements of the force of the blows, etc. The same method is also used for comparing kicking techniques.

Sure, they got it right, concluding that Western boxing is the most effective punching technique and muay Thai the most effective kicking technique, but with a flawed methodology.

I still remember from my old high school physics teacher Mr. Powell that force = mass X acceleration, or F = ma. No mention was made of the different size or strength of the individuals throwing these punches using various techniques. If they used 130-pound Manny Pacquiao to demonstrate boxing, they obviously would have gotten a different reading than if they used the now 230-plus-pound James Toney. Likewise with kicking.

There also was no discussion of the various styles of kicking, some which land with the foot, and others with the shin. In fact, kicking and knee strikes were considered together, although they are separate techniques. They may not be exactly apples and oranges, but are closer to being apples and pears, if we can mix in a little biology with our physics.

I think Mr. Powell would have flunked these guys behind this doc.

From here it only got worse.

The demonstration then went to examine submissions. Again, for whatever reason, someone got the correct answer despite a flawed methodology.

The only person demonstrating submissions was Rickson Gracie. Again, bringing Gracie Jiu-Jitsu to a wider audience is always laudable, but isn't there a little something called mixed martial arts that has been doing that for years? Even here various styles of submission grappling were not discussed, such as those used in catch wrestling. In effect, there was no methodology here, just measurements taken from a demonstration by Rickson on an inanimate dummy.

There was also zero mention of the techniques of wrestling. With all the success of wrestlers in the mixed martial arts, and with so many non-wrestlers learning these techniques, such an omission in this hour-and-a-half doc is inexcusable.

And it got worse again. It was clear that the doc was concerned with the antiquated question of which style of martial arts was the best, like Bruce Lee, let alone MMA, had never existed. There was no footage of UFC, Pride, or any other MMA competition, even though Rickson was a featured martial artist.

On top of this, they got the history wrong, too. The martial arts were presented as originating in east Asia, approximately 1500 years ago. Nothing was noted about the Pankration competitions in the ancient Greek Olympics, which was essentially no-holds-barred fighting. This began at the 33rd Olympiad in 648 B.C.E. Nothing was noted about the drawing on the walls at Beni Hasan in ancient Egypt, approximately 5000 years ago, depicting numerous wrestling and martial arts techniques. My history teachers would have flunked these guys, too.

Meanwhile, these were endless clips of martial arts movies. The narrator continuously implored us that the doc was looking for the 'Ultimate Warrior'. I half-expected to see Jim Hellwig come out of the back and smash Hulk Hogan over the head with a steel chair. By this time I did not expect to see any real mixed martial arts fighting competition.

And worse still it got. Done with any pseudo-scientific discussion of real fighting techniques, the doc descended directly into science fiction. The topics: nerve strikes and the 'dim mak', or death punch.

With more martial arts movie clips playing again and again, the force of a hammer fist blow from a ninjitsu specialist was measured on yet another dummy. Then, for the presumed dummies watching, it was concluded that this was a 'death punch'.

Sure, his punch was powerful, but there was absolutely no explanation or discussion as to why a 'death punch' has never worked or been seen in boxing, kickboxing, muay Thai, mixed martial arts, etc. In fact, this documentary did not document so much as one actual death punch. It did not show any 'death punch'. Instead it just said that it was one.

At about the half-way point, the subject switched to the use of weapons. I switched from the play button to fast forward. I do have some interest in this area, but it is secondary to my main concerns and expertise, which are in the combat sports without weapons. Plus, I think I had already seen quite enough, thank you.

You can watch this show Sunday night if you wish. I will most likely be working on my own shows during the telecast, although in New York SNY is airing a repeat of a 'Broadway Boxing' card and in the U.S. NBC will be airing Seattle vs. Indianapolis in a live preseason NFL game. I may take a peek at those, unless there is a good science fiction show on somewhere, other than, of course, the National Geographic Channel. "