Wrestler Advantages Over BJJ?

[Penance]

Originally Posted by OmaPlata

the stories true except for the trophy, so its not a trainwreck. now, go put on your funny ear thingys and your strong man in the circus tights and try to push some guys shoulders to the ground for 3 seconds, now thats real training there lol

The trophy part is what made it a train wreck.

I do BJJ.

[Tim McFatridge]

Alot of good points made by all. I have to disagree with one point that was made though. Wrestling is not more for stand up and BJJ more for the ground. Wrestling is great on the ground and just happens to be better in the stand up than BJJ only because most wrestlers work the tie up or clinch a great deal. Wrestlers are very hard to set up if you are in the tie up with them because they constantly train this position. BJJ is great on the ground and can be great standing if you train it for that. Someone mentioned Sambo also as being considered a wrestling art....which I agree but Sambo or Sombo has ALOT of really good submissions that are very effective. The main difference in the two I would say has to be the mind set and attitude of those that practice it. Wrestlers in my experience seem to be more open minded to trying new things and are more willing and eager to try different things in order to improve their skill/game. Most bjj guys that I have rolled with, train with and are friends with seem to be more close minded to outside knowledge. They seem to get stuck in the rut of "that isn't bjj so I am not going to do it." I have trained with alot of bjj guys who tell me that their instructor has told them to stick to armbars and chokes and not waist time on the leg locks. Thats a sad case....just the opposite is true for the wrestlers I have trained with. They see something and are all over it trying to learn it and make it theres. In the end both are very good arts, both can save your life and the practitioners of both deserve the respect.

[OmaPlata]

How would wrestling have any advantage in stand up? LOL, ridiculous, they have no attacks except take downs, in BJJ we can jump on the back, arm drag, flying triangle, flying armbarm, etc etc etc , the standing attacks in BJJ are 25-1 over the ones in wrestling

[grappler-jordan]

Originally Posted by OmaPlata

How would wrestling have any advantage in stand up? LOL, ridiculous, they have no attacks except take downs, in BJJ we can jump on the back, arm drag, flying triangle, flying armbarm, etc etc etc , the standing attacks in BJJ are 25-1 over the ones in wrestling

I would honestly like to see you try to jump on the back of an experienced wrestler...

Are you serious or joking? I mean no disrespect, but have you ever rolled with an experienced wrestler... Practically, everyone of the moves you just listed would get you slammed, and hard...

I am a BJJ guy, and in my opinion BJJ has weaknesses in the stand up game that need to be compensated for by cross training... wrestling teaches great takedowns and how to work in a standing tie up. From that position, I would be VERY suprised to see you pull one of those moves...

BJJ is just not the end all solution... pulling guard is not always a win situation, Oma you should try cross training with some wrestlers, you might learn a few things...

[traveller]

Oma are you still just trying to get these guys worked up or was your last post serious?
I would much rather face a BJJ guy in a standup "No holds Bar" fight or while throwing someone out of concert or club, than have to face a wrestler with the same experience level.
Generally I find wrestlers more powerful and explosive and they are far harder to move into the position you want them to (of course the older I get the harder it is for me to move anyone around). They train very hard to maintain control and stay on their feet. I have not met many BJJ guys that want to stay on their feet at all. That being said, I don't want to be on the ground with the BJJ guy. When I do still do my occasional security gig, or end up in a stupid situation, I want it over quick. The last person I want to be on the ground with is a BJJ guy. Not because I know they are that much better than a wrestler, but because I know my limitations.
As for a ring fight with rules, I don't play that way, so I won't go there.

[Sagacious Lu]

Originally Posted by traveller

Oma are you still just trying to get these guys worked up or was your last post serious?

I'm not sure, but either way you've just hit on the biggest advantage wrestling has over BJJ; at a wrestling tournament you're guaranteed not to meet Oma in person while at a BJJ event you run the risk of having to deal with this jackass face to face

[OmaPlata]

Originally Posted by grappler-jordan

I would honestly like to see you try to jump on the back of an experienced wrestler...

Are you serious or joking? I mean no disrespect, but have you ever rolled with an experienced wrestler... Practically, everyone of the moves you just listed would get you slammed, and hard...

I am a BJJ guy, and in my opinion BJJ has weaknesses in the stand up game that need to be compensated for by cross training... wrestling teaches great takedowns and how to work in a standing tie up. From that position, I would be VERY suprised to see you pull one of those moves...

BJJ is just not the end all solution... pulling guard is not always a win situation, Oma you should try cross training with some wrestlers, you might learn a few things...

How are they going to slam someone when they are asleep? that'd be a neat trick axel foley .

[grappler-jordan]

Originally Posted by OmaPlata

How are they going to slam someone when they are asleep? that'd be a neat trick axel foley .

Did you see how Matt Hughes won the UFC Welterweight Championship by chance? He was put into a triangle choke by Carlos Newton, he picked him up off the ground and slammed him into the realm of unconciousness. Carlos was knocked out on impact...

Mike Fowler (BJJ Black Belt, Pan Am Champ) recently lost in the Mundial BJJ World Championships to Daniel Moraes. Mike locked on a seriously tight arm bar from the gaurd and Daniel slammed him (illegally albeit) on his head/commonly known as a "spike" to release the hold and to go on to win the match. For more info on this controversial match read Kid Peligro's article... http://news.adcombat.com/article.html?id=11586

Have you ever rolled with an equally skilled wrestler?

[bigred389]

Originally Posted by Tim McFatridge

Alot of good points made by all. I have to disagree with one point that was made though. Wrestling is not more for stand up and BJJ more for the ground. Wrestling is great on the ground and just happens to be better in the stand up than BJJ only because most wrestlers work the tie up or clinch a great deal. Wrestlers are very hard to set up if you are in the tie up with them because they constantly train this position. BJJ is great on the ground and can be great standing if you train it for that. Someone mentioned Sambo also as being considered a wrestling art....which I agree but Sambo or Sombo has ALOT of really good submissions that are very effective. The main difference in the two I would say has to be the mind set and attitude of those that practice it. Wrestlers in my experience seem to be more open minded to trying new things and are more willing and eager to try different things in order to improve their skill/game. Most bjj guys that I have rolled with, train with and are friends with seem to be more close minded to outside knowledge. They seem to get stuck in the rut of "that isn't bjj so I am not going to do it." I have trained with alot of bjj guys who tell me that their instructor has told them to stick to armbars and chokes and not waist time on the leg locks. Thats a sad case....just the opposite is true for the wrestlers I have trained with. They see something and are all over it trying to learn it and make it theres. In the end both are very good arts, both can save your life and the practitioners of both deserve the respect.

Oma seems to be proving that particular point of yours, Tim...

[Adept]

Originally Posted by OmaPlata

How would wrestling have any advantage in stand up? LOL, ridiculous, they have no attacks except take downs, in BJJ we can jump on the back, arm drag, flying triangle, flying armbarm, etc etc etc , the standing attacks in BJJ are 25-1 over the ones in wrestling

The arm drag is actually a wrestling technique, although it's now mixed up with BJJ and Judo alike. Wouldn't you agree that Judo would beat BJJ in the stand up grappling? Well, wrestling is basically no-gi Judo more or less if you think about it.

[OmaPlata]

Originally Posted by grappler-jordan

Did you see how Matt Hughes won the UFC Welterweight Championship by chance? He was put into a triangle choke by Carlos Newton, he picked him up off the ground and slammed him into the realm of unconciousness. Carlos was knocked out on impact...

Mike Fowler (BJJ Black Belt, Pan Am Champ) recently lost in the Mundial BJJ World Championships to Daniel Moraes. Mike locked on a seriously tight arm bar from the gaurd and Daniel slammed him (illegally albeit) on his head/commonly known as a "spike" to release the hold and to go on to win the match. For more info on this controversial match read Kid Peligro's article... http://news.adcombat.com/article.html?id=11586

Have you ever rolled with an equally skilled wrestler?

a triangle doesnt have a guy on his back, its on the front. Maybe you should watch Matt Hughes the wrestling great in his fight with BJJ guy BJ Penn, that pretty much shows what happens when a wrestler gives his back. Yes Ive trained with wresters many times and they always bring those funny ear cover thingys into the gym. They are actually kind of predicatable when i know they are primarily wresters, if they were incognito and just wore the GI maybe they'd do better. They love going for the guilitine everytime at the start, which fails everytime at the start. this is from the knees of course. They are usually strong and in good shape, have good base, but are too hyper for the most part and get tapped easy. IF they trained BJJ for a year or so at least plus their wrestling, then you have a great ground fighter.
and the arm drag is perfected by Marcelo Garcia, its a long way from a wrestling move, which doesnt have a RNC with hooks sunk in, in its arsenal

[grappler-jordan]

I am well aware of what a triangle is, but you mentioned using a flying triangle from stand up against a wrestler and I was providing an example of why that would be SO dangerous...

I was not refering to taking the back in that example, however, I think you would be hard pressed to take the back on a wrestler with even mediocre skill while standing....

[OmaPlata]

Originally Posted by grappler-jordan

I am well aware of what a triangle is, but you mentioned using a flying triangle from stand up against a wrestler and I was providing an example of why that would be SO dangerous...

I was not refering to taking the back in that example, however, I think you would be hard pressed to take the back on a wrestler with even mediocre skill while standing....

doesnt matter, i agree its hard to take anyones back from standing when in a fight or competetion, my point was the BJJ guys have more attacks from a standing position than a wrestler does, thats it

[grappler-jordan]

Okay, we agree on that point...

My point however is that all of those techniques are not what most people would consider, "high percentage" attacks. Flying armbars, flying triangles etc. are dangerous moves, they can put you in a world of hurt (given in most sub wrestling matches slamming/spiking is illegal).

My goal in stand up is to control and take down when I am rolling. I have submitted someone standing on only 2 occasions that I can recall and the victims provided thorough evidence of stupidity prior to those submission attempts... Hence, my opinion that someone who is an expert at takedowns will have an advantage over the average BJJ guy who does not often work takedowns, takedown defense, throws, grips or related techniques...

[gregimotis]

Originally Posted by OmaPlata

How would wrestling have any advantage in stand up?

Uh, he said it right here:
"Wrestling is not more for stand up and BJJ more for the ground. Wrestling is great on the ground and just happens to be better in the stand up than BJJ only because most wrestlers work the tie up or clinch a great deal.


Come on man, he didn't even say BJJ was flawed, he just said wrestlers in general practice the standing clinch more. At least try to read the post once in a while .