Wrestler Advantages Over BJJ?

[Tim McFatridge]

Oma...I think you are getting Collegiate style wrestling mixed up with Real wrestling. Collegiate wrestling will have all the throws,takedowns, sweeps, armdrags and shoot in's but without the subs. If you want to talk about submissions then lets talk about real wrestling. I mean the wrestling that was being practiced in this country back in the early 1900's til today. Lets talk Catch Wrestling...Catch wrestling actually has far more subs than bjj ever thought about having and guess what it has the rear naked choke. Strangler Louis who was an old time catch wrestler use to choke people out all the time thats how he got the name. Once he got a hand on you he would pull you in close using an armdrag or other move then use his footwork to get behind you for the choke dropping you to the ground where he would then use his legs to trap your arms and it would be nite nite. I think the confusion comes when people talk about wrestling they usually think about collegiate wrestling which has no subs only pins. Do some research on Catch wrestling and you will be pretty amazed at what you find. Like I said I am not against bjj in anyway. I have trained in bjj for about 2years and have trained with several bjj instructors and it is great but it is IN NO WAY THE END ALL IN GROUND FIGHTING. I have trained in Catch Wrestling, Sambo, Shooto and Collar and Elbow wrestling with some of the best in the world and can tell you that there are advantages to these other arts that bjj does not have. In bjj you are constantly working position in order to get the submission...in Catch you are taught how to get the submissions with out being in the "perfect" position. In Sambo they teach you to stay close to your opponent to "leave no space" so when you are doing your submission they teach you to close the space which makes it harder for him to counter because there is no space for him to work. Collar and Elbow wrestling is great from the tie up because the drill you on this and teach you how to counter everything your opponent is trying to do. Now also let me say this...THE ART DOES NOT MAKE THE FIGHTER BUT THE FIGHTER MAKES THE ART. As I said before and as you are proving to be true Oma most bjj guys or atleast in my experience are the most close minded martial artist on the planet. Most of them will not admit that there maybe a better way of doing something or that maybe there is something out there to make them better. Instead they do like Royce and other Gracies have done in the past and just say "thats Brazilian Jiu Jitsu", or some other stupid thing like Rickson said in a magazine interview which was "all modern day grappling comes from Brazil, it all has its roots in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu." WTF is that about I know they are not that arrogant are they? Oh wait maybe they are because I remember and interview with Royce after he was choked out by Wallid Ishmail and he said that he really did not lose the fight because Wallid beat him with a BJJ technique so really he won because Wallid used one of his moves...so either way bjj won the fight. Yeah...ok. Good thing Matt Hughes did not go ahead and break his arm off in the UFC or Royce would be walking around with one arm all happy because he won that fight too.

[traveller]

The true submisssion master though is Rick Flair whose father is the actual inventor of BJJ. Way back in the day, Rick Flair's great great grandfather RickFlair Sr. met Gracie and taught him everything he knew (later he named his son for Rick -- Rickson).
Whoooops, I must have slipped off to fantasy land for a minute.

[grappler-jordan]

Oma,

Because you are, well for lack of a better word brainwashed that BJJ is the end all answer. I was wondering if you wouldn't mind doing something? Do a little research on Rolls Gracie, who he was, how he was viewed by the family, how good a grappler he was... Look up information on arts he cross-trained in and notice to this day most modern BJJ artist who knew him say he is still the best grappler and the sharpest graplling mind they ever knew. Even the great Helio Gracie admits this openly. Unfortunately due to his tragic and untimely death much of his legacy was not passed on but to a select few training partners and students of his (Romero "Jacare" Calvacanti to name one you might know).

I hope you might find this eye opening that even Rolls, considered possibly the best BJJ practitioner to have lived found it necessary to learn things besides just BJJ....

[OmaPlata]

Originally Posted by Tim McFatridge

Oma...I think you are getting Collegiate style wrestling mixed up with Real wrestling. Collegiate wrestling will have all the throws,takedowns, sweeps, armdrags and shoot in's but without the subs. If you want to talk about submissions then lets talk about real wrestling. I mean the wrestling that was being practiced in this country back in the early 1900's til today. Lets talk Catch Wrestling...Catch wrestling actually has far more subs than bjj ever thought about having and guess what it has the rear naked choke. Strangler Louis who was an old time catch wrestler use to choke people out all the time thats how he got the name. Once he got a hand on you he would pull you in close using an armdrag or other move then use his footwork to get behind you for the choke dropping you to the ground where he would then use his legs to trap your arms and it would be nite nite. I think the confusion comes when people talk about wrestling they usually think about collegiate wrestling which has no subs only pins. Do some research on Catch wrestling and you will be pretty amazed at what you find. Like I said I am not against bjj in anyway. I have trained in bjj for about 2years and have trained with several bjj instructors and it is great but it is IN NO WAY THE END ALL IN GROUND FIGHTING. I have trained in Catch Wrestling, Sambo, Shooto and Collar and Elbow wrestling with some of the best in the world and can tell you that there are advantages to these other arts that bjj does not have. In bjj you are constantly working position in order to get the submission...in Catch you are taught how to get the submissions with out being in the "perfect" position. In Sambo they teach you to stay close to your opponent to "leave no space" so when you are doing your submission they teach you to close the space which makes it harder for him to counter because there is no space for him to work. Collar and Elbow wrestling is great from the tie up because the drill you on this and teach you how to counter everything your opponent is trying to do. Now also let me say this...THE ART DOES NOT MAKE THE FIGHTER BUT THE FIGHTER MAKES THE ART. As I said before and as you are proving to be true Oma most bjj guys or atleast in my experience are the most close minded martial artist on the planet. Most of them will not admit that there maybe a better way of doing something or that maybe there is something out there to make them better. Instead they do like Royce and other Gracies have done in the past and just say "thats Brazilian Jiu Jitsu", or some other stupid thing like Rickson said in a magazine interview which was "all modern day grappling comes from Brazil, it all has its roots in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu." WTF is that about I know they are not that arrogant are they? Oh wait maybe they are because I remember and interview with Royce after he was choked out by Wallid Ishmail and he said that he really did not lose the fight because Wallid beat him with a BJJ technique so really he won because Wallid used one of his moves...so either way bjj won the fight. Yeah...ok. Good thing Matt Hughes did not go ahead and break his arm off in the UFC or Royce would be walking around with one arm all happy because he won that fight too.

Ive never met a wrestler or seen one, look at matt hughes when he got caught by BJ Penn, even begin to know how to escape from a RNC, if they were taught how to apply it, then they'd be taught how to escape it. IM not buying wrestlers are taught that move, if so I go back to matt hughes who looked much like a white belt when he got caught in it. BUt maybe some forms or wrestling know it. So the college wrestling is what im thinking of, NO SUBS but pinning the guys shoulders, wow, thats a great move lol
BJJ isnt the end all or ground fighting, no one ever said it was, but it is the end all of grappling, period. No one wins the ADCC without BJJ, of that there is no dispute. FOr MMA, yes, you have to mix up the ground game for strikes, etc, and BJJ doesnt teach that, though Valu Tudo does, which is BJJ wihtout the GI and with strikes.
Keeping the opponent close and leaving no space is 100% BJJ, thats what they preach from day 1. NO room for the opponent to make space and get loose. But thats a principle of all ground control Im sure.
And where am I closed minded, I said the whole time you need to mix up the game for MMA? For grappling you don, BJJ owns the grappling world, ala Roger Gracie, Jacare,and Dean lister. Though Lister was a nation ranked college or high school wrestler at some point, it wasnt till he learned BJJ that he won the ADCC. Which is case and point for mixing up the game in MMA, Lister is a great wrestler and great BJJ guy.
Wallid chocked out Royce in what match, a BJJ match? I didnt see that, I believe it though, Wallid is great MMA and BJJ

[OmaPlata]

Originally Posted by grappler-jordan

Oma,

Because you are, well for lack of a better word brainwashed that BJJ is the end all answer. I was wondering if you wouldn't mind doing something? Do a little research on Rolls Gracie, who he was, how he was viewed by the family, how good a grappler he was... Look up information on arts he cross-trained in and notice to this day most modern BJJ artist who knew him say he is still the best grappler and the sharpest graplling mind they ever knew. Even the great Helio Gracie admits this openly. Unfortunately due to his tragic and untimely death much of his legacy was not passed on but to a select few training partners and students of his (Romero "Jacare" Calvacanti to name one you might know).

I hope you might find this eye opening that even Rolls, considered possibly the best BJJ practitioner to have lived found it necessary to learn things besides just BJJ....

I know all about Rolls. There are 100s of BJJ black belts that were once wrestlers. Any form of ground cross training is good. the point of the thread was one pure form vs the other, and if its a grappling match, theres no question BJJ wins. MMA then its a mixed bag of tricks and its up to whatever the other guy knows besides his style that will determine the winner. I train with Fabio Santos' students at times, he is a Rolls/Rickson black belt, so I train with descendents of Rolls. Im familiar with the style vs gracie barra style which i train under.

[blitz]

God all I ever see him talking about is how penn choked out hughes.

[medic06]

Originally Posted by Adept

Umm, perfected: yes, created: no. Lol. The more I read your posts, sir, the more I think you're really a Gracie behind that computer. I have a lot of respect for the Gracie family, but you guys DID not invent grappling or leverage. BJJ popularized the guard position and opened a lot of people's eyes and my hat's off to them. But...the arm-drag is actually a popular wrestling move, way before even Marcelo Garcia was born. Yeah. Before he was BORN.

Nah, not even the Gracies are that arrogant

[OmaPlata]

Originally Posted by blitz

God all I ever see him talking about is how penn choked out hughes.

such a perfect demonstraction of the "wrestling great" hughes getting his ass totally handed to him by a far superior ground fighter in Penn

[grappler-jordan]

Speaking of Penn I thought I saw something about him having a UFC Fight coming up again soon, anyone know anything about that?

[medic06]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CERNSyu2q3c


Note that other famous gracie invention, the butt-scoot

[sapatiero]

The main reason I come to this forum is because it has less sh*t talking & putdowns than some of the other forums (like SFUK & cagewarriors in particular). Defend.net is often a forum for a decent debate about MMA & BJJ - we can talk about fighters, styles, techniques etc. etc.

Please can we not turn this forum into another dithering ejaculation of mindless drivel? This topic started off a decent debate, and now it's turned into a playground pram fest.

I'm firmly in the BJJ camp - it's my art & I love it, and think the Gracies are great. But I still recognise the strengths of other grappling arts as well as the striking ones. Let's debate it, analyse it, argue it without resorting to this nefarious assemblage of excrement.

PS. Wrestling is poo.

[OmaPlata]

Originally Posted by medic06

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CERNSyu2q3c


Note that other famous gracie invention, the butt-scoot

the wrestling "great" hughes, getting completely spanked by a BJJ black belt, like most wrestlers do when the run into a BJJ fighter, time and time again.



funny, no one can say anything about that fight except "hughes wasnt versed in BJJ yet, so he didnt know what to do". well, exactly, so his famous wrestling game did NOTHING to stop the onslaught of BJJ mastery

[Adept]

Hmm, I'm curious but....Penn is just a black belt, right? So how did Mr Royce, a 7th degree BB, lose then? You're probably going to tell me Royce was too old or something, right? So how did Carlos Newton, another BJJ black belt, lose to Hughes TWICE? Newton's not that old. But in any case, I think it's the person that makes the art, not the other way around. Just because Penn beat up Hughes doesn't mean BJJ spanks wrestling forever. Evolution is constantly changing. The one flaw I see in the Gracies is their refusal to change with change.

Don't get me wrong, I was actually rooting for Royce to win because I think his newaza techniques are very good.

[traveller]

Oma -- stop. please don't go on anymore. I'll answer for you. Hughes beat Royce after he learned BJJ techniques, and lost to Penn before he knew them.
You see BJJ is the only real art anyone needs to be able to do anything.
I have been firmly convinced that if I practice BJJ I will be a better lover, father, husband, fighter, bouncer, driver, baseball player, pool player and even a better cook.
Sorry Oma -- I couldn't resist.

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

Wrestling(Collegiate, Freestyle, Greco-Roman), is a discipline that builds your stand-up grappling skills, ability and athleticism. This will allow you be much more successful at standing submission attacks. Wrestling also encourages you to obtain dominant positions, like taking the back, even while standing. The rules for wrestling competition promote takedowns and throws which gives you a definite edge over someone who hasnt been wrestling for as long as you. All that is apart of grappling. In No-gi competitions like Grapplers'Quest, NAGA, etc., low ranking Jiu Jitsu guys with great Wrestling backgrounds do consistantly well.

For anyone to think that Wrestling ability isnt needed or useful for grappling competitions is absurd. With that said, BJJ is great, on the ground, in a Gi or not. All Wrestling is, is stand-up grappling. Even Sambo and Judo are forms of wrestling.

Ronaldo "Jacare" Souza, trains alot of stand up. Look at his takedowns and throws...

When it comes to MMA, which is a more practical sport when it comes actual combat, an extensive wrestling background is almost expected, along with excellent Jiu Jitsu.