Wrestler Advantages Over BJJ?

[traveller]

Seriously, I shouldn't have said that, but I was somehow over come by the sarcasm that has stemmed throughout this thread.
1st -- Oma has provided sound reason on a lot of his pro-BJJ threads.
Others have given sound reason about wrestling advantages (which was the thread starter).
I know I am guilty as well, but can we get back to the real topic here. It seems we have some folks who have just jumped into the thread who may have additional insight that is not rapped up in the personal debate strategy.

[grappler-jordan]

Originally Posted by traveller

Oma -- stop. please don't go on anymore. I'll answer for you. Hughes beat Royce after he learned BJJ techniques, and lost to Penn before he knew them.
You see BJJ is the only real art anyone needs to be able to do anything.
I have been firmly convinced that if I practice BJJ I will be a better lover, father, husband, fighter, bouncer, driver, baseball player, pool player and even a better cook.
Sorry Oma -- I couldn't resist.

People are literally looking into my office door at work wondering what I am laughing at after that post, thanks Traveller that made my day...

[grappler-jordan]

Originally Posted by sapatiero

The main reason I come to this forum is because it has less sh*t talking & putdowns than some of the other forums (like SFUK & cagewarriors in particular). Defend.net is often a forum for a decent debate about MMA & BJJ - we can talk about fighters, styles, techniques etc. etc.

Please can we not turn this forum into another dithering ejaculation of mindless drivel? This topic started off a decent debate, and now it's turned into a playground pram fest.

I'm firmly in the BJJ camp - it's my art & I love it, and think the Gracies are great. But I still recognise the strengths of other grappling arts as well as the striking ones. Let's debate it, analyse it, argue it without resorting to this nefarious assemblage of excrement.

PS. Wrestling is poo.

Thank you! Could not have said it better...

[jubaji]

Originally Posted by traveller

Seriously, I shouldn't have said that, but I was somehow over come by the sarcasm that has stemmed throughout this thread.
1st -- Oma has provided sound reason on a lot of his pro-BJJ threads.
Others have given sound reason about wrestling advantages (which was the thread starter).
I know I am guilty as well, but can we get back to the real topic here. It seems we have some folks who have just jumped into the thread who may have additional insight that is not rapped up in the personal debate strategy.

I'm afraid your good intentions may be wasted. hOmoPlata knocked this train off the tracks at least three pages ago. There's nothing left but reminding hOmoPlata what a freak he is as he pleasures himself while sniffing soiled Gracie undergarments.

For a reasonable and useful discussion (which this topic certainly could generate) maybe someone should start a new thread.

[grappler-jordan]

Originally Posted by jubaji

I'm afraid your good intentions may be wasted. hOmoPlata knocked this train off the tracks at least three pages ago. There's nothing left but reminding hOmoPlata what a freak he is as he pleasures himself while sniffing soiled Gracie undergarments.

For a reasonable and useful discussion (which this topic certainly good generate) maybe someone should start a new thread.

I have a better idea, how about you two act like the adults that you claim to be, stop provoking and picking at each other like my 3 year old and his cousin and have a real discussion.

[OmaPlata]

Originally Posted by traveller

Oma -- stop. please don't go on anymore. I'll answer for you. Hughes beat Royce after he learned BJJ techniques, and lost to Penn before he knew them.
You see BJJ is the only real art anyone needs to be able to do anything.
I have been firmly convinced that if I practice BJJ I will be a better lover, father, husband, fighter, bouncer, driver, baseball player, pool player and even a better cook.
Sorry Oma -- I couldn't resist.

Thats what ive been saying all along, so how is wrestling better when it cannot beat BJJ when they meet in a competition? BJJ wins at least 50-5, style vs style in MMA or any event. It wasnt till Hughes learned BJJ that he got dangerously good

[OmaPlata]

Originally Posted by 7r14ngL3Ch0k3

Wrestling(Collegiate, Freestyle, Greco-Roman),
Ronaldo "Jacare" Souza, trains alot of stand up. Look at his takedowns and throws...
.

Hes training for a career in MMA, really. Cant wait to see it

[Dale B.]

It is sad this thread has become what it has become. This is a very interesting topic up for debate. We should be posting pros and cons of each style followed by rebuttles to the pros and cons. Thats it. There is no need for personal attacks on each other.

Originally Posted by jubaji

Everyone tells me wrestlers pick up bjj right quick. Bjj guys suck as bad as any other one-year wrestler after one year.

Well I personally am a BJJ guy. I just recently picked up wrestling to supplement my takedowns in BJJ. I have to say the clinch work and shots are great. I now know the double-leg takedown in variations and step by step technique (was taught it in BJJ, but not as detailed). I also know how to correctly down a single leg shot and switch to the 'bars of guard' and how to transition nicely from double leg, to single leg, to bars of guard.

With that said, from my own personal experiences and observations, it is better to go from wrestling to BJJ than from BJJ to wrestling. I never wrestled in high school so this wrestling is pretty hard to pick up, but it is still helping my ground game a great deal. I am able to score more takedowns and stay on my feet easier if desired. I have seen many wrestlers come into our BJJ class and pick it up fairly easily and make blue belt before a year (usually takes 1-2yrs). But where I do my wrestling, there is another BJJ guy there (a brown belt I might add) and is better than me at wrestling ( probably from his hours of mat time) but still not able to keep up clinch/takedown wise with guys who only wrestled high school, not even college. Collegiate wrestlers are on another level.

As a side note, Omoplata, you are not only making yourself look bad, but BJJ guys look bad. BJ Penn wrestled in high school and a little in college (I am from the Big Island). And they were correct that Rickson and Rolls studied wrestling. As DJColdfusion said by Rigan "Jiu-Jitsu, Judo, Sambo, sub-grappling, wrestling . . . what does it matter? Its all grappling, its all good, it will all improve your game . . . and why wouldn't you want to improve your game?"

[Tim McFatridge]

Oma, the close minded comment is based on you always putting BJJ on a holy pedestal and constantly putting down other arts. I am pleased to see that you are talking more about collegiate wrestling and not Catch wrestling so everyone knows which wrestling you are talking about. But honestly if we are going to compare BJJ to Wrestling shouldn't we compare apples to apples? I mean you can't compare something like BJJ to Collegiate style wrestling where there is no submissions but only pins because that is not a fair comparison. You have to compare BJJ to something that is on the same level with submissions. Like Sambo or Catch or some other grappling art with subs. Also I would like to hear from all you guys that train in BJJ as to what all you train. I mean do you guys train leg locks or do you stick primarily to armbars and chokes? The reason I ask is because the bjj school I trained at for 2 years did not like training the leg locks. When we would spar I would get a knee bar or heel hook or some other leg lock and the instructor would tell me not to waist my time on it, instead he wanted me to always focus on armbars and chokes. Which is eventually why I stopped training there. I have trained with other bjj instructors who are just the opposite and train leg locks a great deal. Its like I always say...it depends on who you train with...the person makes the art not the other way around. Yes Oma I would even like to hear from you on this.

[jubaji]

Originally Posted by grappler-jordan

I have a better idea, how about you two act like the adults that you claim to be, stop provoking and picking at each other like my 3 year old and his cousin and have a real discussion.

hOmoPlata killed any real discussion long ago. Your begging won't bring it back.

If you want proof, just look at all of his posts here so far, and watch what he says next.

[traveller]

Let's try it this way at the new thread?
"What are the essential grappling elements mixed martial artist should learn? "

[jubaji]

Originally Posted by traveller

Let's try it this way at the new thread?
"What are the essential grappling elements mixed martial artist should learn? "

Great idea!

[grappler-jordan]

I find that hesistancy to train leg-locks typical of alot of BJJ schools for their beginner classes. Alot of them find them to risky to teach to students who don't complete understand the concepts of dominant position and hip placement. Given it is hard when you first start to take a leg-lock and submit a guy (whether it be knee, heel, toe) without giving the other guy a chance at one at the same time.

I believe leg locks are an important part of the ground game and can leave a gap in your attack perspective if you don't understand how and when to use then.

My school is an MMA focused school not EXLUSIVELY BJJ, so we consistently work takedowns, throws, grips etc. to improve our stand up game as well. Although we are not expert wrestlers we understand their is a need for that knowledge and we train it accordingly. (Probably due in part to being instructed under a Romero "Jacare" Black Belt).

I would like to hear from around the horn on this one as well... what other aspects do you guys work at your schools? What is your curriculum... maybe even your instructors lineage?

[sapatiero]

...It's an interesting point - I love leg locks (sapateiro is portuguese for 'the cobbler'). IMO most BJJ schools should allow achilles locks at white belt, knee bars at blue, and 'twisting locks' like toe holds & heel hooks at brown belt level.

My thoughts are that the more dangerous locks should be left until the students are more experienced & therefore more relaxed. Obviously this means that black/brown belts can only try their heel hooks on other black/brown belts, but surely this is better than a manic white belt breaking knees?

Heel hooks scare the living daylights out of me

In terms of lineage, I've been lucky enough to train with Helio, Royler, Royce, Rorion (and sons), Rillion, and in Barra - Carlos jnr (and son), and a number of his world champs like Carlos Lemos and Lagarto etc. There's a definite difference in styles between the old school/practical (Helio, Rorion, Rener, Ryron, Ralek, Royce), and the latest stuff/sportive (Gracie Barra trained guys under Carlos Gracie jr.). What styles of BJJ do you guys consider best - technical/sportive, or basic/practical?

[DJColdfusion]

I think many individuals on both sides of this discussion are missing a couple of points I made back on page #2 of this thread . . . I'll repost them below.

[quote=DJColdfusion;232353]


As always, in these style VS style discussions, it comes down to the athletes involved not the sports/disciplines they follow.

[ . . . ]


We hosted Rigan Machado for a seminar about 3 months ago and the one thing he said that has really stuck in my head went something like "Jiu-Jitsu, Judo, Sambo, sub-grappling, wrestling . . . what does it matter? Its all grappling, its all good, it will all improve your game . . . and why wouldn't you want to improve your game?". In other words, train in everything you can.

QUOTE]