Wrestler Advantages Over BJJ?

[DJColdfusion]

Originally Posted by sapatiero

...It's an interesting point - I love leg locks (sapateiro is portuguese for 'the cobbler'). IMO most BJJ schools should allow achilles locks at white belt, knee bars at blue, and 'twisting locks' like toe holds & heel hooks at brown belt level.

My thoughts are that the more dangerous locks should be left until the students are more experienced & therefore more relaxed. Obviously this means that black/brown belts can only try their heel hooks on other black/brown belts, but surely this is better than a manic white belt breaking knees?

Heel hooks scare the living daylights out of me

In terms of lineage, I've been lucky enough to train with Helio, Royler, Royce, Rorion (and sons), Rillion, and in Barra - Carlos jnr (and son), and a number of his world champs like Carlos Lemos and Lagarto etc. There's a definite difference in styles between the old school/practical (Helio, Rorion, Rener, Ryron, Ralek, Royce), and the latest stuff/sportive (Gracie Barra trained guys under Carlos Gracie jr.). What styles of BJJ do you guys consider best - technical/sportive, or basic/practical?

#1 I think they should teach everything from the very beginning but there should be VERY strict direction on how far a submission can be taken when you free roll. New guys should know what it means to tap and if a newer student throws a leg lock or is caught in a leg lock both partners need to know that they stop automatically.

#2 As far as "styles" in BJJ . . . I don't really see a delineation between any styles. In Brazil, which you probably already know, its not Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu its just Jiu-Jitsu. The "Brazilian" part of the name was added when it was brought here to the USA. Rorion has modified the name and recast it as being more self-defense specific by calling it "Gracie Jiu-Jitsu" when it is still the same art. Some schools teach a little differently than others but the art is still the same. Once again, in Brazil, its not Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and its not Gracie Jiu-Jitsu its just Jiu-Jitsu.

As far as individual styles go, I love watching PeDe Pano's inverted Guard work. Marcelo Garcia is like a little monkey and moves like lightning. Marcio Corletta is incredibly technical for a bigger guy, Roger Gracie is a monster that is arguably the #1 grappler on the planet right now and he does it with what is arguably a very "basic" game (basic, yes, but perfect basics), and my favorite is Jacare' Explosive, technical, agile, he's the whole freakin' package.

[DJColdfusion]

Originally Posted by Tim McFatridge

Also I would like to hear from all you guys that train in BJJ as to what all you train. I mean do you guys train leg locks or do you stick primarily to armbars and chokes? The reason I ask is because the bjj school I trained at for 2 years did not like training the leg locks. When we would spar I would get a knee bar or heel hook or some other leg lock and the instructor would tell me not to waist my time on it, instead he wanted me to always focus on armbars and chokes. Which is eventually why I stopped training there. I have trained with other bjj instructors who are just the opposite and train leg locks a great deal. Its like I always say...it depends on who you train with...the person makes the art not the other way around. Yes Oma I would even like to hear from you on this.

There are some coaches out there like that. I have a close friend who held an intermediate ranking in Shooto, holds a purple in BJJ, competed in Rorion Gracie's 16 man submission showdown (he was also the Iron Heart Crown Super Heavy Weight Kickboxing champ . . . but that's a different story). And he trained at a BJJ place not far from here for two years. Coming from the Shooto background he has tons upon tons of leg attacks and entries and when he'd spar guys at that school he'd catch them all the time with pretty much any leg attack he wanted. The highest ranking student over there, who is a brown belt, would make him do pushups when he caught someone or if he performed a technique that was not quite the way the instructor thought it should look. One day he, my friend, caught the assistant instructor (the brown belt) with five heel hooks in a row and the guy started shouting at him "Your game is weak! All you have is heel hooks! That's not Jiu-Jitsu!" Which is, of course, the cowardly way of saying "I'm a dumbass that has never learned how to defend leg attacks and I'm to lazy to try and learn it now!" Schools that do that are the ones who are damaging the art and its reputation.

I'm a Machado guy. The Machados are an open group of people. They train in everything and with everyone. If you have something that will help their game then they want to know about it. We train leg-locks on a regular basis, not every day, but regularly. Personally, I love chokes that use the GI . . . it makes me giggle when I hear my opponent start to make that "grrrkkkchhkk" sound as the choke cinches down!

My instructor is a Rigan Machado blackbelt and is friends with guys like Erik Paulson and Bas Rutten. Our influences are diverse and we train everything we have time to train while still looking, searching for ways to improve our game withing the traditional confines of BJJ and wherever else we can find great grappling.

BJJ is not dead, its not static, its not a rote number of techniques and 100 classes to your next belt. BJJ is a living art and like all living things it wants to grow. Yes, I know that last part was corney . . . sorry . . . but I still feel that way.

[grappler-jordan]

great posts all around DJColdFusion....

[EmptyneSs]

in the bjj program i train in, leg attacks are not allowed for white belts. i think blue belts and above can use leg attacks. im fine with that too, there are alot of spaz white belts, i dont need one of them crippling me for life to feed their ego.

[sapatiero]

Originally Posted by DJColdfusion;232656
[B

#2 [/b]As far as "styles" in BJJ . . . I don't really see a delineation between any styles. In Brazil, which you probably already know, its not Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu its just Jiu-Jitsu. The "Brazilian" part of the name was added when it was brought here to the USA. Rorion has modified the name and recast it as being more self-defense specific by calling it "Gracie Jiu-Jitsu" when it is still the same art. Some schools teach a little differently than others but the art is still the same. Once again, in Brazil, its not Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and its not Gracie Jiu-Jitsu its just Jiu-Jitsu.

Great post.

On the styles thing - I agree there are individuals styles, but me & my training partner noticed a huge difference between Helios style taught through Rorion & his sons (where we trained regularly & my training partner became assistant instructor), and Gracie Barra in Brazil (where we went to live & train for 4 months). I don't think Rorion recast BJJ to make it more self defense specific though - his techniques are straight from his dad - the arts founder (checkout Helio's master text book to confirm this).

In a nutshell, we noticed that:

1. Rorion's style - Top game/basic (chokes, armbars, triangles etc.)/very relaxed/waiting for the opponent to make a mistake to capitalise/reactive/geared towards the street/geared towards 30 minute rounds/includes self defense.

2. Carlos jrs style - Guard game/technical (open guard, half guard (thanks Gordo!), spiderguard, omoplata, half guard sweeps etc.)/longer set pieces/proactive & attacking - geared towards sport tournaments/ geared towards 6-10 minute rounds/ not much self defense (unless Carlinhos is teaching).

It's interesting that the styles are so different when they were both taught by Helio (who brought Carlos up, even though he's Carlos sr's son). It took us 3 weeks of sparring to get into the swing of things at Barra - it was totally different. I agree with you entirely - it's all BJJ, but there are different 'flavours'. I realise that most schools are somewhere between the two examples but I think they both have merit IMHO

[Tim McFatridge]

Good post DJColdfusion... the bjj coach you talked about sounds like my old instructor. However my guy was a super nice guy very polite yet was very much against me doing any kind of leg locks. I have trained with Larry Hartsell for 12 years and have trained with Erik Paulson on several occassions and have also trained with a Sambo guy and they all love leg locks. Larry really loves Catch wrestling and shows alot of really good, really fast subs for the legs. I would always get frustrated when rolling with the guys at my old bjj school because I was not allowed to use any locks from the waist down even when I rolled with his top students. After training with Larry and Erik I believe in training with as many different people as I can. If they have something to offer then I am willing to learn.

Also, I think the biggest differences in bjj and wrestling is what they put the emphasis on in training. Wrestling spends alot of time training the stand up game and going from standing to take downs. They work alot from the tie up as well.
Alot of bjj guys that I work with train the tie up very little. They will start in the stand up but then go right to the guard or will work the different takedowns from there. Wrestlers do alot of pummeling (or pumple) drills as well as foot work. I know when I have my guys working the tie up position I have them do it pretty much the whole class. We work alot of drills and alot of footwork because I want them to be comfortable in that position.

[OmaPlata]

Originally Posted by Tim McFatridge

Oma, the close minded comment is based on you always putting BJJ on a holy pedestal and constantly putting down other arts. I am pleased to see that you are talking more about collegiate wrestling and not Catch wrestling so everyone knows which wrestling you are talking about. But honestly if we are going to compare BJJ to Wrestling shouldn't we compare apples to apples? I mean you can't compare something like BJJ to Collegiate style wrestling where there is no submissions but only pins because that is not a fair comparison. You have to compare BJJ to something that is on the same level with submissions. Like Sambo or Catch or some other grappling art with subs. Also I would like to hear from all you guys that train in BJJ as to what all you train. I mean do you guys train leg locks or do you stick primarily to armbars and chokes? The reason I ask is because the bjj school I trained at for 2 years did not like training the leg locks. When we would spar I would get a knee bar or heel hook or some other leg lock and the instructor would tell me not to waist my time on it, instead he wanted me to always focus on armbars and chokes. Which is eventually why I stopped training there. I have trained with other bjj instructors who are just the opposite and train leg locks a great deal. Its like I always say...it depends on who you train with...the person makes the art not the other way around. Yes Oma I would even like to hear from you on this.

*waste


Our school we train leg locks often, ankle locks, achilles, knee bars, etc, from many many different angles. I dont know when you trained in BJJ but if it was a long time ago, say the mid 90s, I dont think they were training leg locks very much, it wasnt until MMA was getting popular and the Russian Sambo guys like Taktarov were fighting that BJJ was forced to start teaching them. BJJ is always evolving and adapting new moves to keep up with current styles. WHo was your instructor that said "dont waste your time" on leg locks??????
That being said, it touraments only blue belts and above are allowed to try leg/ankle locks, white belts arent allowed to do them, do to the high risk of injury. Though advanced whites seem to have them down pretty good.
Dean Lister is a master of sambo and leg/ankle locks, Ive seen him tap black belts in training with ankle locks..Even in the ADCC he tapped Saulo Riebiero with a knee bar or ankle lock. SOme schools teach them

[OmaPlata]

[quote=DJColdfusion;232656]#1 I think they should teach everything from the very beginning but there should be VERY strict direction on how far a submission can be taken when you free roll. New guys should know what it means to tap and if a newer student throws a leg lock or is caught in a leg lock both partners need to know that they stop automatically.

#2 As far as "styles" in BJJ . . . I don't really see a delineation between any styles. In Brazil, which you probably already know, its not Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu its just Jiu-Jitsu. The "Brazilian" part of the name was added when it was brought here to the USA. Rorion has modified the name and recast it as being more self-defense specific by calling it "Gracie Jiu-Jitsu" when it is still the same art. Some schools teach a little differently than others but the art is still the same. Once again, in Brazil, its not Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and its not Gracie Jiu-Jitsu its just Jiu-Jitsu.

As far as individual styles go, I love watching PeDe Pano's inverted Guard work. Marcelo Garcia is like a little monkey and moves like lightning. Marcio Corletta is incredibly technical for a bigger guy, Roger Gracie is a monster that is arguably the #1 grappler on the planet right now and he does it with what is arguably a very "basic" game (basic, yes, but perfect basics), and my favorite is Jacare' Explosive, technical, agile, he's the whole freakin' package.[/QUOTE]


Roger is a monster, cant wait to see him and Lister in the ADCC superfight next time around, thats the rumor, or Lister and jacare

[grappler-jordan]

Originally Posted by OmaPlata

Roger is a monster, cant wait to see him and Lister in the ADCC superfight next time around, thats the rumor, or Lister and jacare

Either one of those match ups would just be... awesome. Can't wait to see em!

[Tim McFatridge]

Oma I trained at the bjj school back in 96' or 97' can't remember exactly when I started but it was either the end of 96' or the start of 97'. I still talk and train with a few of the students over there and they say he still does not like to do leg locks although recently(being the last year or so) he has started showing some leg locks. Sambo definately has some great leg locks in it.

[OmaPlata]

I love leg/ankle locks, I caught a purple belt in a heel hook when i was a white belt because he didnt even think i knew the move, he wouldnt tap and would rather get injured than have a white belt tap him out, so i let it go, but the damage to the his ego was done and anytime after that he went extra hard to show me up when we rolled

[grappler-jordan]

^^ experienced a similar situation at my first BJJ school with a purple belt, he didn't think I knew leg-locks and I caught him in a knee-bar. His assumptions are the only reason I could pull it off, despite my previous Aiki-Jiu-Jitsu experience he was a far better grappler then me. He made it a point to demonstrate that frequently and to stop the class and point out my mistakes consistently when we rolled after that day. However, he DID tap to mine so that was probably worse for his ego.

[Tim McFatridge]

That is the one thing I can not stand about rolling with certain guys...you have them a submission hold you know it and they know it but they refuse to tap because they think they are better than you or that you should not be good enough to get that on them. Thats the other reason to learn to flow from lock to lock. That is also why I like putting on the gloves and banging with those guys as well. When you are standing up throwing punches you do not have to worry about the guy not wanting to tap. You just keep pumping that jab in his face and move around and have target practice and at the end of the round everyone clearly knows who is the better stand up guy.

[jubaji]

Originally Posted by Tim McFatridge

That is the one thing I can not stand about rolling with certain guys...you have them a submission hold you know it and they know it but they refuse to tap because they think they are better than you or that you should not be good enough to get that on them. Thats the other reason to learn to flow from lock to lock. That is also why I like putting on the gloves and banging with those guys as well. When you are standing up throwing punches you do not have to worry about the guy not wanting to tap. You just keep pumping that jab in his face and move around and have target practice and at the end of the round everyone clearly knows who is the better stand up guy.

Hang on, does that mean what you don't like about the guys who don't tap is that everyone doesn't clearly know who is the better mat guy?

That's not the impression of you I had.

[Tim McFatridge]

No that is not what I mean at all. I apologize for the confusion I should have stated it more clearly. What I meant was I have seen way to many guys who let their egos get in the way of common sense on both sides. I have been at schools where we were all rolling with each other and have seen some advanced guys (purple, brown and black belts) going with guys that they thought were less skilled than them and have seen the advanced guys get caught in a heel hook or knee bar or reverse achilles and refuse to tap. I have seen guys that have had their achilles torn, ankles popped and elbows and shoulders seriously injured all because they refused to tap to guys who were suppose to be less skilled than them. I guess my point was that alot of grapplers have really big egos(I know alot ofboxers and kick boxers do to) and their egos make it hard for the mto tap some times. I will say it now...anyone gets me in a lock and I will fight it and try to counter it and get out of it but if I can not get out of it in a relative short amount of time then I am quick to tap. If you get me in a heel hook I will tap in a hurry. There is no reason to risk the injury when you are rolling for free. Now if I was fighting in the ring for a big payday or on the street to save my life then I would fight it longer. I hope that clarifies what I meant. In all honesty I could care less who is better on the mat. I am mainly concerned with making myself better and making those I train with better.