catch wrestling

[JkD187]

Catch Wrestling.....im prob the only one who has seen the real stuff on here.Furey is full of horse shit he is NOT a Catch Wrestler...he said he spent 5 years with Karl Gotch when he trained for only like 6 months and didnt teach Furey nothing but conditioning exercises not submissions.For real Catch Wrestling vist this site www.catchwrestle.com

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

Tony Cecchine is another one just like Matt Furrey...
http://www.scientificwrestling.com/public/93.cfm?sd=2

Just scan this article that a BJJ instructor wrote about Tony C...

I was bored, so I found myself willing to sit through 16 minutes of that....

Anyways, Tony apparently likes to poke fun at the "jiu jitsu" guys. Whats even funnier is that his assumptions and accusations that hes making of the jiu jitsu guys are his misconceptions of jiu jitsu because of his lack of understanding in grappling.

Anyways, on to the technique critique

Lets just say that the omoplata at @ 3:20 is nothing short of atrocious. With such a loose hold on the shoulder, nothing is preventing his opponent from simply circling his arm out and coming back up to a neutral position. As you can clearly see, hes relying on his grip on his opponents wrist to attempt to prevent him from escaping the omoplata. Your grip on a sweaty wrist vs the leverage of your opponents entire body.....

The correct way locks the shoulder with your legs, and by engaging your abs and sitting up, you effectively trap your opponents wrist between your abs and your thighs.



Side Control @ 3:43

Here Tony critiques jiu jitsu fighters for staying on their knees from cross side. I find this rather amusing, since there are a variety of positions with which to hold cross side. Tony's cross side control is atrocious- the person demonstrating has his hips way too low to have his weight on his opponent. If his opponent attempts to escape, the man on top is holding with his arms, contrary to Tony's belief that hes using his body. The PROPER positioning of the hips for the top man is to have the point of his hips on the point of his opponents hips. This will maximize the pressure the top man can have on the bottom man. You could say that Tony's not the one demonstrating the technique, but he is the one directing the control of the person in the top position. That cross side hold down might stop a white belt, but the amount of space available for an elbow escape back to guard from that position is atrocious- I could drive a truck through there.

By the time one becomes an experienced blue belt or by the time they're a purple belt, jiu jitsu fighters are well aware that they want to keep their knees off of the ground so as to keep the weight on their opponent, but now why do we still see BJJ fighters controlling from cross side on their knees? The answer is to set up various attacks from cross side. When an opponent exposes his arms and limbs from cross side, he starts to open himself up for attacks. The problem with the man in the top position when he was on his knees is that he was not tight enough to secure his opponents limbs. Watch the clip and notice how far away his knees are from his opponents head- he should be trying to touch his head with his knees- now his left arm secures head control and hes once again able to use his body to lock the right arm of the man on bottom, allowing for various submissions and positioning techniques.

Want a closer look? Watch the few tapes of Rickson when he fought Funaki or in Choke when he fought in Vale Tudo 95- he uses his knee to open up his opponents elbows- this prevents any possible form of elbow escape and allows for an easy transition to the mounted position. You can also watch Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira vs Mirko Cro Cop- notice how Nog uses his left knee to open up Cro Cops elbow and allow for an easy mount?


Kimura @ 6:20

This one kinda surpised me, since catch wrestlers are often reknown for having good kimuras- Tony's details are horrendus.

He talks about not sitting up like the "jiu jitsu guys." Once again, the jiu jitsu guys sit up to isolate the limb and attack with the lock. Good ol' Tony thinks that with the tweak of his wrist, he can break a resisting opponents posture and pressure allowing for an easy kimura-I've been doing kimuras for awhile, its not that simple. The other mistake that Tony is making is that his hips are still flat on the ground. Once you lock your arms together in a kimura, the fight is NOT with your arms, but rather with your hips. From this position, Tony would be best suited escaping his hips further towards the side of the kimura (so that his left hip is on the ground and his right hip is facing up). This will maximize the leverage for the kimura.

Without sitting up for the kimura, your opponent is simply going to drive back into you and pin your hips to the ground. This is why the fight is with your hips and not your arms. Look very closely at 8:57 and you will see that Tony does indeed have his hips flat against the ground.


Kimura @ 7:41

I couldnt believe this one- Tony has the guard and elects to give the cross side in order for a kimura attempt. Essentially what hes doing is jumping to cross side to give himself leverage (or what he thinks is leverage) for a kimura. We're all taught never to attempt to attack from cross side in BJJ, and for a good reason- it exposes you to to attacks. The counter to this attack is a beautifully set up armbar where the man on top need only swing his hips in a circle. If you'll notice, Tony uses a rather crude hook that merely prevents his opponent from rolling out of the kimura, but in this counter, you're not rolling out but simply circling to the side, to which Tony has no defense.

If you're still having troubling picturing this counter, just watch the submission that Matt Hughes used against GSP- Pierre was attempting kimuras the entire round against Hughes (and trying them from half guard). At the end of the round, St Piere locks on in, but Hughes slides out of half guard (putting him in the exact position Tony is showing) and spins around for a beautiful armlock submission.


Armdrag from guard @ 11:07

Once again, Tony's details are focusing on the wrong things. From here, Tony describes the important details of the position as grabbing your opponents waist- this is incorrect. The important detail is sitting up to close the distance between your opponent torso and your own. Even if you grab at your opponents waist, wirery guys can still swim their arms through and grab your waist and go back to the guard- this has happened to anyone who's ever attempted an armdrag. Essentially, what one wants to do is to sit up so that your chest is on your opponents back. This way, you're using your chest and the strength of your entire body against your opponents counter and him trying to bring his arm back. If you use Tony's method, hes using the strength of his arms to take the back as opposed to the method taught in jiu jitsu where you use your entire body.

So, Tony likes to rag on the jiu jitsu guys and claims they use their limbs to control their opponents- lets do a little recap here:

From his cross side position, elbow escape back to full guard is an easy and obvious option- Tony's method of holding cross side involves using your arms to hold the person in tight (even though he says otherwise). The jiu jitsu method has you use your hips on your opponents hips utilizing your entire body against your opponents.

His kimura's rely once against on the strength of his arms to pry the arm up and apply the lock- the jiu jitsu guys maneuver their hips so as to keep their own arms tight to their body (your arms are stronger when they're closer to your body as opposed to extended away from your body). This allows for one to use their entire body rather than just their arms.


Tony's omoplata relies on wrist control to prevent an opponent from escaping. The jiu jitsu technique allows for locking the technique with your legs (stronger than your wrists) and utilzing your entire body to apply the technique.

And he says jiu jitsu guys rely on their limbs to control their opponents.....

Erik Paulson, however, is the real deal.

[JkD187]

Originally Posted by 7r14ngL3Ch0k3

Tony Cecchine is another one just like Matt Furrey...
http://www.scientificwrestling.com/public/93.cfm?sd=2

Just scan this article that a BJJ instructor wrote about Tony C...



Erik Paulson, however, is the real deal.

Watch the tapes and make your own decision...opinions are like nose's everyone has one just make sure you base yours on logic and actual facts not some guys report on the internet....and yes Erik Paulson is a fantastic coach...def one of the best ive ever seen.

[3mptin3ss]

i think ken and frank shamrock knew catch wrestling didnt they?

[JkD187]

Originally Posted by 3mptin3ss

i think ken and frank shamrock knew catch wrestling didnt they?

Yes they did...Pancrase was created by Masakatsu Funaki,Minoru Suzuki and a few others...it was basically Catch Wrestling style Grappling mixed with Muay Thai however the Grappling was the bread and butter.Karl Gotch taught Satoryu Saiyama Akira Maeda Yoshiaki Fujiwara Nobuhiko Takada Suzuki and Funaki along with many others.The Catch influence can be seen in every single MMA style in MMA's early days in japan.Gotch taught those guys and they went on to create org's such as Pancrase UWF Shooto Rings and a few other offshoots.Today only Shooto and pancrase are still going strong in Japan...however Pancrase in nowhere near the level of Shooto which produces the greatest fighters 155lbs and under in the world.

[DJColdfusion]

I've seen some of Furey's work and I don't like it. Just my opinion. It just doesn't "work" for me.

I've seen some of Cechinne's work and while it may be a little "off" I found it entertaining. More entertaining then educational though.

Paulson is awesome. I have been absolutely blown away by everything I have ever seen from him.

I really like the stuff at http://www.scientificwrestling.com/ and I want to get my hands on the Fujiwara DVDs

If you can get your hands on them puck up Justin Ellison's leg locks tapes from Dark Horse Productions. Absolutely AWESOME.

[Tim McFatridge]

Agreed! Erik Paulson is the real deal. I have trained with him several times in the past and was blown away by everything he showed. It is frustrating sometimes though when you are trying to work on something and are having to bust your butt and give it your all and you look over at Erik and he is doing it and making it look like the easiest thing in the world...lol Erik trained with Yori Nakamura in Shoot (actually still does) and became his top student has become a great coach and teacher.

I trained with the late Johnny Valentine for a short while...he is an old time wrestler from the 1950's and 1960's and he trained with several old time catch wrestlers. He was in a plane crash in the 70's I believe and him and Ric Flair were the only two survivors. When he came to both of his legs were broke at the knee... they were snapped back 90 degrees the wrong way. Anyway he used forearm crutches to get around and would get on the mat and crawl or scoot to you. I remember thinking to my self "what is this old man going to try and do to me, he can't do anything he can't use his legs," then he grabbed me and I started yelling. He did not believe in tap outs for beginners. He would make me scream until I realized he was as good as he said he was. I never made that mistake with anyone again.
He loved the top wrist lock and the double hand wrist lock.

[Tim McFatridge]

A couple of subs from Catch that I like are:

1. when you are in top position of cross body and your opponent has his knees up- take your right hand and shoot it between his legs and grab his left foot(top of his foot so your palm is on top and you are grabbing pinky side of foot) then take your left hand and shoot it under his left leg(because his leg is up) grabbing your right wrist(at the same time you shift your body and shoot your left leg thru towards his hips) keep his foot on the ground and pull it toward his butt- be sure to place your left forearm against the side of his calf/shin as you do this.

2. Same starting position: take your right arm and pin his left arm to his body so he can not use it to counter you. Then take your left hand and place it on his face/chin and force his head to the left. As you do this you will move into 69/four corners/four gate(whatever you want to call it). You will place your hip on the side of his face and push down preventing him from biting you. You will then capture his right arm and post up by bringing your knees in to touch his shoulders. You will then get him in clock head scissor by crossing your feet and capturing his head with your legs. Be sure to keeo one foot on the ground but stay on your toes. This way you can pivot from side to side for the neck crank. Also you will have his right arm and he will now be on his side as you apply the clock head scissors or you can go straight to the bent arm lock.

I hope that makes sense to you guys.