5 block Kata from the Horse Stance?

[Zeke]

I attended a class recently in which I was given a "refresher" on the 5 block Kata from the Horse Stance. I try to be open minded and learn from everyone if possible,but... Can anyone give me an instance in which anyone has used these type blocks or the horse stance successfully in NHB/MMA? The guy who was teaching the class has never had any exposure to NHB/MMA and his entire training has been in a tradional syle of Okinawan Karate. He feels confident in his ability to defend himself with this system. He is going to teach this system to a Police recruit class. Can anyone give me any reason to believe that this type of training will benefit the class? My honest appraisal is that unless I am missing something from the big picture, the class would be better off learning nothing at all. Thanks for any comment/suggestions. If anyone here likes this type of system, I don't mean any disrespect for what you have learned, maybe you can enlighten me and help me to see the big picture. Thanks.

[Ryu (non-working password]

For the police, I personally do not feel this is a good training program. The reality of MMA aside, police forces benefit from more controlling-styled martial arts that can be used successfully on the job. Judo, classical jiu-jitsu, and even BJJ (just watch your gun...) are better in my opinion. The reason being that police generally are not supposed to really strike with their fists, etc.
Grappling is a method of tying a person up, holding them for backup, or cuffing them. Also, some of the better positions of classical jiu-jitsu and judo such as knee on neck, wrist control, etc are positions that police find themselves in often when detaining a suspect.

Ryu

Karate techniques that work:

1) Reverse punch (right cross) to the face or solar plexus.

2) Front snap kick to the groin.

3) Numerous parry-and-counter techniques.

Zeke:

Please, forget that kata.

[DanInNeckaha]

I think the point of the horse-stance is for leg strength and endurance. It isn't really supposed to be used in a fight. As far as the blocks go, they tend to be outdated. They were intended to counter a fellow karateka. A decent boxer would eat you alive if you tried to stop his stuff with traditional blocks.

[hounddog]

hard style blocks are doo-doo. especially low blocks. if you really commit to a hard style block you are basically guessing on where they are going to strike. for example, if your opponent throws a roundhouse kick how the hell do you know if he is going upstairs or downstairs. it takes anticipation and if you guess wrong you lose. kiiiaaaaii.

[Chopstix]

some people use hard style blocks to improve hand speed..
the horse stance was something that was supposed to be done when your like 4 years old for hours at a time, old masters would often make you stand in it for a few hours at a time for months and months.. this was to see if you were dedicated enough to be his or her student.

[bobby_steeles]

i use my horse stance when i'm taking a shit in a public restroom.

[troll's lover]

You use karate to take a shit?

Are your farts Kiais?

What a homo

[Maxximus]

Is the police academy just letting any moron who offers free lessons teach their recruits??? If these guys are gonna be street cops on a tough beat, their lives may at some point depend on their hand to hand combat skills. That type of cheesy outdated crap will get them wasted! I'm sorry, but that just bothers me. You would think that the police academy would know well enough and would have the resources to at least give their recruits some basic jiu jitsu, judo or boxing training. I'm not saying that karate is useless though. Some of the more refined techniques and combinations from karate (such as in Kenpo) do seem fairly practical to me. BUT, all that stepping in deep horse stances and using wide rigid block-then-hit combinations type stuff is simply outdated, archaic crap that's not good for much more than giving old Japanese fishermen a light workout. Those kinds of punching techniques are simply nowhere nearly as developed and functional as basic boxing training is. If they're gonna teach recruits martial arts, at least teach them something useful. What a waste of time.

[dan downard]

From the looks of the police in my town,any form of exercise would be beneficial.If they skipped rope for ten minutes it would improve the handspeed and cardio they have now.They just fall on you and smother you with their fat to subdo people now.

[Zeke]

Thanks for all of the posts. You all seem to think about as much of the Horse stance and kata as I do. It wouldn't bother me if it was harmless, but I think it is actually dangerous if anyone tries to use it in a real life situation. A naive person may think that he/she has learned something that would benefit them...

[fascistfury]

it is this lack of grappling and submission skill in the police force that helps promote police brutality! if these officers were well trained, police beatings would be much less common...with the exception of the south, where our police do it just for fun. gotta love the good ole boys! if police could take down a person and securely hold them, there would be no reason to beat citizens w/ nite sticks and kick citizens in the head while they were prone. police brutality is the result of a stupid, lazy, and untrained police force! later!

[Mickey Finn]

The observation that restraining arts are more applicable to police work is IMO accurate. There is value in hard style Karate but it will take you 5 years to get to it. Highly impractical for training police recruits. Far better to spend less time learning restraints.

Training blocks from a horse stance is done to strengthen the legs. There are faster more efficient ways of strengthening your legs but the old school approach used deep stances when practicing basics and kata as a method of increasing leg strength. No one who knows anything advocates fighting from deep stances like that.

Hard style blocks are the first defensive moves taught. These are basics. For beginners. You are learning body mechanics. Later the blocks are abbreviated and turn into parries.

I disagree about the low (downward block) being bullshit. Actually that is the one hard style block I would keep. I have used it against front snap kicks very effectively in real fights. The thing is I don’t use it as a block per say. When a front kick is thrown and I am out of range sometimes I will drive a hard style “block” into my mans lower leg to throw him out of position. You catch a guy who’s fully extended on a kick and you can basically steer him where you want him to go with that block. If it’s a front leg snap kick from a right hander that is thrown at another right hander a hard style low block will oftentimes spin your man so that you can come in on his back. Nice safe way to get in on him.

[hounddog]

Mickey,

I can see your point when you are out of range and in no danger of getting hit. Like you said, the hard style block essentially becomes a strike. I'm talking about a fully comitted hard style block for a roundhouse kick or even a front kick, side kick, whatever. It involves timing and anticipation. You anticipate wrong, you miss the block and you get kicked. Ouch.
-hounddog

[Mickey Finn]

Originally posted by hounddog
Mickey,

I can see your point when you are out of range and in no danger of getting hit. Like you said, the hard style block essentially becomes a strike. I'm talking about a fully comitted hard style block for a roundhouse kick or even a front kick, side kick, whatever. It involves timing and anticipation. You anticipate wrong, you miss the block and you get kicked. Ouch.
-hounddog

I’ll agree with that for the most part. Hard style blocks can be used to attack the joints also. I saw a friend of mine get into it with a guy he was attempting to remove from a certain strip joint. (Bouncing) He tried to negotiate with the idiot and the guy started doing that poke them in the chest with the finger thing as he was making his drunken case. My friend grabbed the hand with his rear hand trapping it and then drove an outward inward hard style block into the drunk’s elbow. As the pain was sinking into his alcohol befuddled mind he cranked his arm around behind him and took him on a walk to the door. He actually jacked the guys arm up pretty good.

I agree that blocking for the most part is going to be to slow and leave you over comitted. Much better to parry the blow because the counter can be quicker or simultaneous. Slip, jam or parry is a more realistic defensive approach IMO.