Karate, Kung Fu... NOT ARTS

[PassiveGuy]

Art is self expression, simply put. These "arts" are so configured and exact that the freedom of expression that forms art is robbed form the practitioner. Katas are rigid movements that must be performed so perfectly that there is no room for improvisation. If there is a "way" then it is not art. There is no "way" to paint a picture, there is no "way" to wright a song. Boxing, on the other hand is not considered an art, but there is room for improvisation, there are techniques and stategy but its what the fighter does with this that makes him successfull, there is no specific "way" to box. When you walk into a dojo or dojang you see lines of students performing the same technique over and over again in sequence with each other, you walk into a boxing gym and you see boxers sparring, hitting the bag, working the pads, no two fighters standing there doing the same stuff over and over again in sync with each other. Rules aka forms destroy art.

[PassiveGuy]

cont.... In MMA/NHB you have access to knowledge, BJJ, Muay Thai, Sombo, Judo... but is there a set way you must pracice these, is there a way you must fight? When you step into the ring against a skilled fighter the only way to overcome him and succede is to use your own personal art form and destroy him. No boundries, no "way".

[Justin]

I think you make some good points and I have been frustrated with other styles for some of the same reasons - I practice and teach hung gar and shaolin kung fu - there is lots of room for improvising in the forms even in 2 person weapons forms - no 2 people demonstrate a form the same and in the higher levels students create their own forms - in sparring we allow all strikes,kicks, knees, elbows and grappling techniques - becuase we use small vale tudo gloves with open fingers we have an arsenal of techniques that you wouldnt be able to use in straight boxing - this is how i run my kung fu program and I would say the kung fu i teach is ART - dont get me wrong though - kung fu is just a hobby for me and bjj is like my life

justin
http://www.thirdheaven.com

[Bad Karma]

Your fighting "game" is just that...your fighting manner.

Karate, o.k., you don't get it. The movements found in kata are the expression(s). Study bunkai before you say otherwise. There's so much ki, judo, aiki-jitsu, and whatever else you can think of within those movements it isn't funny. Like the expression of seeking ultimate truth. Those who seek it never find it because "it" never went anywhere. It's always been with you and right in front of your eyes. You can begin your awareness by NOT defining the movements before they can define themselves.

I can say the learning of the movements (kata) is stressed in order to preserve the art. The interpretation of those movements, however, are purely up to you and your "way."

Peace

[Chopstix]

the forms and movements that characterize a system is not meant to shackle the practitioner, its like the words and grammar to a language. you cannot express yourself in writing without learning words and separate letters and how to put them together. similarly, you are supposed to get to a point in your trainning where each movement and technique
is so ingrained that it requires minimal thought and effort to perform it, letting you create whatever combinations you want that is part of your chosen art. sadly, not many people ever get to this level..

[Water Dragon]

If you look for technique, it is nowhere. If you forget technique, it is everywhere. Yes, very rigid sounding.

[Balisong]

Karate and Kung Fu are not arts?
You moron.

So do you mean to tell me that when a boxer works only on his jab and he jabs the heave bag 500 times in a row, then what he is doing is not an art?

How about in BJJ, when the class practices a technique sequence? Then BJJ is not a fighting art?

Get a life asshole.

I still find it hard to believe that people still believe that the only true martial arts, and true martial artists are required to wear speedos and get naked and sweaty.

[PassiveGuy]

"You moron"
"Get a life asshole"
??? Did I ever mention BJJ? In a BJJ comp. you don't have katas, and you can fight however you like within the rules, therefore you can express yourself and you are doing an art.
"So do you mean to tell me that when a boxer works only on his jab and he jabs the heave bag 500 times in a row, then what he is doing is not an art?"
Basically my post was all about how boxing IS an art, even though there are basic techniques that you learn you are still not totally bound by a system and its beliefs. In the point sparring match that I saw a couple of days ago the fighters fought so identicall they looked like robots.

But for the rest of you, good points!

[Biker]

Katas and forms are meant to develop your technique. You don't just go into a boxing gym and become a world-class boxer simply by working the heavy bag. Boxers work their combinations to death, sort of like katas, so the movements come naturally and they do not have to think about what they are doing in a fight.
That is also how/why boxers can train to beat one opponent in particular. Ever notice how when a boxer does this they usually win? You can't help but win when someone is bobbing and weaving right into your punches. That is done by practicing the same combinations over and over. Just like a kata.
In karate or kung-fu competitions, they do not fight using katas or forms. Sure there are competitions for katas and forms, but those are individual events. No matter what style you use, you still do some type of a kata. Your instructor simply does not show you how to do something and you automatically know it perfectly, you have to do it over and over. Doing a kata or form just helps to ingrain specific techniques.

[aseepish]

Semantics: The meaning of Gongfu is time and energy. Thus, in Chinese, a master chef, musician, or painter can be said to have good "gongfu."

What about Wing Chun? There is plenty of room for personal expression in this art. I think this is appearent in the differences between various instructors, even (or should I say especially) within the Yip Man lineage. My own Wing Chun instructor throws in some Muay Thai techniques/training every now and again.

-Tony

[Evilution]

I fealt the need to point out the difference between hitting the heavy bag and doing katas. I've never seen someone do a kata where they actually HIT anything. How can you practice striking techniques without actually striking something?


I personally think that karate and kung fu CAN be arts, it just depends on the instructor allowing their students the freedom to grow.

[Biker]

Working a combination over and over on a heavy bag is just like a kata. Same thing when practicing on a wooden dummy in Wing Chun. It's done to improve technique, just a different means to the same end.

[Water Dragon]

Kata or form = body mechanics, structure, alignment, footwork.

It does NOT equal a catalog or way to learn technique. It does NOT equal power. It does NOT make you a fighter.

Traditional Kung Fu is a system.

1. Stance work basic posture for foundation
2. NeiJia or QiGong for power. It is a set of movements based an maximizing muscular efficiency (Coiling) and NOT some majical thing.
3. Basic posture moving i.e. footwork
4. Single moving and linked forms for internalizing the above until they become normal
5. Bagwork and basic partner exercises
6. Actual technique
7. Sensitivity training (bob and weave)
8. Sparring to refine the above
9. Exploration of principle to "free yourself" from technique and contribute to the art.
Time-approxomately 10 years

Sounds kinda like BJJ, No?

[Smokey_D]

Based upon the following definitions for "ART" for the The American Heritage Dictionary, I believe all of the MA, including even sports, fall in the "Art" category.
__________________________________________________
art1 (ärt)
n.
1.Human effort to imitate, supplement, alter, or counteract the work of nature.

2.
a. The conscious production or arrangement of sounds, colors, forms, movements, or other elements in a manner that affects the sense of beauty, specifically the production of the beautiful in a graphic or plastic medium.

b. The study of these activities.

c. The product of these activities; human works of beauty considered as a group.

3. High quality of conception or execution, as found in works of beauty; aesthetic value.

4. A field or category of art, such as music, ballet, or literature.

5. A nonscientific branch of learning; one of the liberal arts.

6.
a. A system of principles and methods employed in the performance of a set of activities: the art of building.
b.A trade or craft that applies such a system of principles and methods: the art of the lexicographer.

7.
a. Skill that is attained by study, practice, or observation: the art of the baker; the blacksmith's art.
b.Skill arising from the exercise of intuitive faculties: “Self-criticism is an art not many are qualified to practice” (Joyce Carol Oates).

8.
a. arts. Artful devices, stratagems, and tricks.
b. Artful contrivance; cunning.

9. Printing. Illustrative material.