Mixed Martial Arts, One of the oldest forms of fighting.

[kingoftheforest]

Originally Posted by BoarSpear

67? Are you trying to tell me I dropped a couple?

I figured the older your a$$ got the MORE you could carry...what with your big butt getting more wrinkles to hide them in.

[IPON]

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

people won't spend the time it takes to rise to the level of MMA practitioners in the upper echelon of the sport? Well, it's equally true that most people will not spend the time or effort needed to rise to the level of expert in other arts that might give them that ability to deliver non-telegraphic slashes with a knife or Rob Leatham accuracy with a gun.

Mike that is simply not true. The Point Uke made was that (in reality) most people are not able or willing to train to be top level athletes. The reason is to become a top level athlete it takes time and complete dedication which most don’t have with full time jobs/family. I can tell you what it takes to be champion level in any sport sponsors, time and sacrifice (and of course talent is assumed). Also, there are people who are just not interested in being “in the big show”, but that does not discredit someone’s abilities. And it does not mean that someone cannot become an expert in SD becuase they do not want to become a top athlete...that is simply rediculus - seriously! Spending time to develop SD abilities is something very different and certainly achievable. I think you are comparing apples and bananas

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

It all takes work. And while we're talking in probablility, the true life fact is that most street altercations are not all that serious. The ones that are are generally ambushes. So since the vast majority of fights are the kind where a choke hold is a better answer than a broken jaw, doesn't it make sense to train that kind of thing against people who can punch, kick, and stop your choke?

Mike, I certainly have a lot of respect for you and your postings and I mean no disrespect. But simply, I can’t understand your point. You speak of the altercations that you have had and I am not sure why you take the assumption that others may have similar or greater experience than you just because others have not come to your conclusions. I am not sure what you train for (philosophically), in terms of SD/UC, at lest from an emptyhand perspective. Remember other states have gun/weapons laws. You have to take the situation that is presented. Its great to know stats, but what do you train for? If you take the assumption that you will probably only meet an occasional drunk, well why bother training at all. A choke isn’t always an option sometimes it needs to be a broken jaw -it depends on the situation.

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

I know what you're saying, bro. And I'm not coming after you personally. What I'm trying to address is that MMA training is likely - likely, not certainly - more useful than you believe. I'm also trying to point out that you are heavily biased, based on your posts, and not simply "pointing out differences." You don't post in support of MMA in any respect, and yet you feel a real pull to reply to any post similar to this that draws a comparison.

We all have bias to some degree and I would and agree that this may not be the correct forum to post, but in all honestly this "bias" (and I am saying this generally) only happens when someone speaks about some aspect MMA not being the "universal truth". However, other MMA practitioners go into other forums with the complete bias of MMA criticizing other styles or concepts simply because it is not MMA. I have not seen (or very rarely) anyone adequately discuss “compare” how the fight format of MMA lends itself to SD/UC better than other school that specialize in SD. Usually it is “Well that won’t work in the ring so it can’t work”. I said previously, MMT (Mixed Martial Techniques ) vs. MMA for a reason. Because there are so many people brainwashed by UFC/MMA propaganda that they truly believe that these people are unbeatable.

I will say this again, The statement was something like “if some top MMA guy met some TMA guy in an elevater you can’t belive the TMA guy would win” this state shows that the complete ignorance (I am not trying to insult the poster) of reality. The concept of “win” doesn’t apple wen you discuss survival. There is no ref in the elevator that will say “Caution TMA-GUY that was illegal” Or “OK this is round THREE…..READY – LET’S GET IT ON!!!!”. It does not matter who is on front of you when the topic is SD your job is survival period You could put any name from any sport infront of me ….names are not important, my job is survival. Now put me in the ring with these people I would try to win but in reality probably not. If anyone thinks differently stop training for SD because you are wasting your time.

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

It does teach you to work hard in training. It does teach you to be tough. It does teach you to expect pain. And if used in a supplemental role, it teaches you what to do when you find yourself in the far more commonly encountered situation of not having to kill someone.

Mike, I think the point UKE is making (and I am not trying to speak for UKE) is simply how can someone say that an “MMA Format “ which does not advocate SD/UC is better equipped than schools that specialize in this area. How many times does it have to be said: MMA is a sport format that is all. There are rules. Athletes train to the rules of this format. Training generally will become the full time job (especially for the top athletes). Training and {steroids} leave them in to fitness. Players scout other players. Rules were meant for safety not because certain techniques do not work, in fact it is some of the techniques that people claim can’t work that are not allowed. It is a athletic event, no one is trying to maim or murder their opponents (including the juice freaks –they just can’t help themselves). What you talk about are positive aspects that can lend themselves to SD. But you assume that some MMA fighter can’t freeze in a fight outside the ring or SD. Hey Bruce Lee said it best about Muhammad Ali “In the ring he would beat me, outside the ring he is mine” (not verbatim) now whether Bruce could do what he claimed is another topic. What he speaks to are the difference of sports and reality.

One more point, the thread is about MMA as one of the oldest forms of fighting so I guess we are all off topic

[IPON]

............

[BoarSpear]

Originally Posted by kingoftheforest

I figured the older your a$$ got the MORE you could carry...what with your big butt getting more wrinkles to hide them in.

[Uke]

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

Uke,
It's good to see you're reduced to attacking my training methods for lack of any argument with teeth. I'm not basing my assessment on my school alone. I'm basing it on hundreds (literally) of videos by self-proclaimed streetfighting gurus, and by the personal experience I've had with teaching seminars 20 plus times a year all over the world in "streetfighting" schools. I'm basing it on having seen firsthand what over ten thousand (again, a literal figure) students at Vunak's and the Inosanto Academy came in with and professed was "streetfighting" skill they'd learned back home. And I'm basing it on the fact that after having lived in 23 states and training at several places in just about all of them, precious few have addressed everything I felt was needed for "real" skill all by themselves. I almost always felt it beneficial to train in more than one method with more than one teacher or coach. When I say many of the things you've talked about are missing from many, many schools, it's because it's true.

If MMA holds no value for the top streetfighting instructors out there, please feel free to explain to me why people like Paul Vunak, Dan Inosanto, Burton Richardson, the Dog Brothers, Matt Thornton, our military (God knows they aren't concerned with real fighting, right?) and so many others at the very pinnacle of the whole "street skills" echelon of martial arts instructors have and do train in and with MMA methods? Are you just so much smarter than all of those people that you've got all the answers they don't? Are they "missing" reality in their training because they include methods from MMA? Please clarify, because by supposing I just don't know how to train people, you're lumping in an awful lot of other world class instructors, and I'd like to be able to tell them what they're doing wrong once I understand it myself.

Seriously, you can insult me all you want, but it just shows you're faltering in your own opinion and you've run out of intelligent ways to defend it.

First off Mike, I HAVE NOT insulted or belittled your own training Mike. You really need to cut that shit out. Its apparent that I like you Mike, and it should be more apparent that I respect you. So every time I write something that isn't flattering, stop be a drama queen and making it seem like I'm trying to assassinate your character.

With that said, you have PERSONALLY said that you have done things and justified their use by stating "Hey, I pulled it off and it worked for me". So there is no attack there and there is no exaggeration or untruths there.

Next, many instructors, not limited to just Paul Vunak, Dan Inosanto, Burton Richardson, the Dog Brothers, and Matt Thornton teach MMA because ITS POPULAR WITH TODAYS FIGHTING CROWD. Its the same way how FMA became very popular in the 70's and karate and judo studios began outsourcing FMA instructors to teach in their schools and studios. FMA had been around for decades in America, but it wasn't until it became popular in the 70's that non-FMA schools went out to find instructors to add what had become popular. I know this because my instructor and Matt Marinas organized the first full contact FMA event in the United States. Its the same way that karate studios began offering kickboxing classes because it became a huge fad, but it didn't mean that a kickboxer like Chuck Norris could beat Fumio Demura in a real fight. People like kickboxing because it was exciting and had much more open competition.

Schools, no matter how dedicated they are to SD, will offer different things from time to time just to keep the doors open. SD/UC instructors have even been reduced to re-labeling combatives, which is offensive type attacks, as self defense so not to get sued. You might be okay if you're teaching people to defend themselves, but if your telling the world that you teaching people to go out and kill and maim, you're a lawsuit waiting to happen. You do what you have to do because in the end, its about money when you run a school. You might be willing to do it for free in a perfect world, but if you want to continue having facilities to teach in, you better offer what appeals and is popular. That is why SD/UC schools offer those classes. They don't want their paying students to have to go anywhere else for what they're looking for.

The many schools that you are speaking about must be McDojo schools, Mike. I notice that you mentioned reputable schools that have MMA programs and offer the things that you listed. I dare you to list a few reputable schools that don't and are lacking in the elements that you listed, Mike.

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

Seriously, you can insult me all you want, but it just shows you're faltering in your own opinion and you've run out of intelligent ways to defend it.

Mike, I'm not faltering in my opinions because most of what I've written isn't opinion. Unlike some people, I may use some opinions, but I ALWAYS support them with facts. And those facts are supported by examples that support those facts. You refuse to address those facts, and I had to literally highlight the facts you glossed over in order to show that you pick and choose pieces of my argument instead of addressing the overall point.

Liking you and accepting things that I know to be not true are two different things, Mike Brewer. I can like you all I want but that doesn't mean that your opinions are accurate, and it doesn't make you the lone spokesman for self defense here either.

There are people here who have studied with renowned men in the field of self defense before you ever met Vunak. So while I don't doubt your experience or your ability, extend the same courtesy, because you're not the only one who has studied under legendary men like Inosanto and have been in scraps. Sometimes I think you like to fancy yourself as the only one here who has been through a lot of shit, when in reality you're just the only one who talks about the shit we've all been through.

Now if you take this post as insulting or disrespectful, then you never considered me as a friend because that means all you do is assume the worst when it comes to everything I write. This isn't a post meant to attack you, Mike. Its meant to convey how I feel, and how I feel is coincidentally the way that many other SD advocates here feel.

[BoarSpear]

My Hat's off to you Uke.

[knifethrower]

Originally Posted by kingoftheforest

I figured the older your a$$ got the MORE you could carry...what with your big butt getting more wrinkles to hide them in.

Holly ****-------------------------

[Mike Brewer]

Uke, you flat out speculated that toughness and work ethic was missing in my school and that I needed MMA to fill those gaps. I like you too, and I'm not upset about it, but it's not drama, it's what you said. I'm not offended at the comment, because number one, I know it's crap, and number two, I'm in great company as I pointed out. I just find it funny that you couldn't come up with anything better than "maybe it's missing at your school and that's why you needed MMA." That's a cop out little kid excuse for an argument, and you know it. It's an absolute failure on your part to look at the possible benefits of what I've been talking about, and it's your bias showing through yet again. But I'm really not angry at all. I swear. You can attack muy opinions and comments all you want. That's what debate is, and I'm game. I'm not angry at al because you have not attacked me. I'm coming after your opinions, but I'm not coming after you. Turnabout there is absolutely fair play. But I wouldn't attack your character for anything you say here (I respect you and your experience, I truly do), and I promise not to take offense so long as you extend the same courtesy.

Now, I will promise you that I am not taking your opinions personally. I simply see them as flawed. You still haven't explained to me how it is that your statements here are being paraded around by you as "facts" when my own experiences with well over 200 schools and 10,000 students are just "opinion?" You're also wrong in the opinion (which you didn't support by any facts at all) that Vunak and some of the others I mentioned train using MMA methods because it's popular with the public. Paul does not, and never did the entire time I lived with him, train people for MMA. The Dog Brothers are hardly known for their MMA camp either. Why is it so impossible for you to accept that these people actually found something useful in those methods and they train with them because they work? You're still coming off as though you're smarter than anyone who claims to do realistic self-defense because they're too stuoid to see that MMA methods will get them killed. Can you not see the arguments you're making? Can you not see the rampant and rabid bias you're showing? Paul Vunak would have been a great person to "compare" as a streetfighter, but you pulled the old BoarSpear standby and dismissed what he does to commercial interest. He only trains MMA because the public wants it? Please!! You've got a serious and deep-rooted prejudice on this one, brother, and calling it "fact" doesn't change the fact that it's just your opinion and nothing more - just like what I've said is mine.

And finally when I say I've used things like pushes, arm bars, and chokes in fights, it's because I have. I've choked out more poeple than I've knocked out, in all likelihood, because I felt it was a more humane way to stop a threat. I've broken a guy's elbow with an arm bar because I got knocked down in a crowd of twenty-some bar patrons, and the guy I was dragging out went there with me and started fighting. I've pushed away from people who were trying to hit me, both in the ring and in the alleyway. Once, I ended a fight by looking down at a guy's feet and shoving him when he looked down to see what was there. He fell over and I took off. But I've also ended fights with punches, kicks, eye gouges, knees, elbows, and headbutts. I wonder, if I had learned all of those things from somewhere other than MMA, and I had trained them using methods other than MMA sparring, would you consider them a little more valid? I find it more telling than any other single factor that while you sit and tell me how MMA will get me killed in a streetfight, it's precisely the toughness and work ethic you're talking about that allowed me to develop the skills that kept me alive in the first place. Granted, everything I've written here is my opinion. But it's a well-founded and fire tested opinion. And frankly, I don't see where you get off trying to make it sound like anything else. I don't see what gives you any right to decide that what I've said here is invalid and that what you've said is impirical fact. If you think that, honestly, you're blind to your own bias.

Look, Uke, I accept that you have had a totally different set of experiences than I have in life. I accept that your opinions are well-founded in your own life. And I can even accept that you may have gotten as far as you want to go without any need for MMA whatsoever. What I am trying to get across - and please, please pay attention to this one oint if nothing else - is that MMA has benefits for some people. For some, it can do a lot of good, and can instill the very traits a person needs to stay alive when the going gets tough. Are there other ways to get there? Absolutely. Does that change the fact that this is one of them? No, it doesn't. My problem with what you're saying isn't that you're wrong. It's that you absolutely refuse to allow for the idea that there may be validity in something that's not "your way." You'll notice that I have never - not once - said that you can't develop functional ability without MMA methods. I firmly believe that you can, because I did that too before MMA was around. I've already accepted your side because I've lived it. The difference between you and me is that I won't tell people that a training method is useless (and even more, dangerous) just because I don't use it myself. You are doing just that. You're saying others are wrong because they don't agree with you, and you're going even farther when you try to dismiss my personal life experience as invalid while touting your own opinion as fact. I'm not saying you should agree.

All I'm saying is that you really should take a look at how and why you're condemning something that has worked and is working for so many others.

[SamuraiGuy]

I can't believe I missed this thread...

[kingoftheforest]

Originally Posted by SamuraiGuy

I can't believe I missed this thread...

I can't believe it's not butter

[Tom Yum]

Originally Posted by Uke

If MMA fighters are so damn skilled and well rounded at fighting in the ring, tell us all Mike why they don't dominate other combat sports like K-1 or professional boxing? Could it be that they are not as skilled and well rounded as you think? Could it be that they just master their own skill sets in their own events and compete against others who use the same skill sets?..

The same could be said of boxers, muaythai kickboxers, wrestlers etc.

Originally Posted by Uke

Why call them well rounded if they fail in other sport-fighting events where specific ranges are tested, and the majority of MMA fail? I said majority, not all. You, like others want to call out the few exceptions, but refuse to acknowledge the rule. When less than 5% of MMA succeed in other events despite being professional athletes in top shape, it DIRECTLY reflects on their skills, not their toughness. You're absolutely right about that, Mike..

They are called well-rounded because they can do many of the things proficiently and pull them off when others cant.

Who would win in a NHB situation in an alley where a fight has escalated - pick Frank Shamrock, Bas Rutten, Marco Ruas, Paul Erickson etc at their best versus any heavyweight boxing champ, K-1 champ - I'd give it to those MMA guys.

This is an example where MMA type fighting is superior to ring sports in terms of empty-handed self-defense, but is still considered a ring sport itself.

Originally Posted by Uke

You can call into question how combative practitioners would do, but they are not professional fighters or in the shape that professional fighters are in. However, MMA's can always enter the full contact weapon events to see if they are as well rounded as Mike implies, but you don't see that often. And there's no wonder why.Just so its clear, I'm not being hostile about this. This is way too easy to have to get emotionally invested in.

Even Pro's cross train.

Shannon Briggs was a top-heavyweight boxing contender who cross trained in MMA. He did rather well in K-1 because of his superior boxing skills - KO-ing an MMA fighter in the first round.

When asked if he would continue fighting in K-1 after this fight, he decided against it because he admitted that he can't take leg kicks and thus ended his kickboxing career after his first match, despite a handsome victory.

In an unrelated incident, Briggs got into a brawl at a party with a few pro-NFL defensive linemen. One of them tried to tackle Briggs and slam him around like a rag doll - thankfully Briggs had cross trained in grappling and was able to get back on his feet and pummel the daylight out of two hulking athletes and GTFO. They took him to court over it. Imagine if Briggs couldn't fight off his feet, they would have stomped him good.

Another classic example of cross training is the Sudo vs. Butterbean fight. Let's face it, Sudo would have flat out lost to Butterbean if had been a boxing venue - you can't make up for a 150-lb weight difference in boxing alone - but the little guy figured out how to get Bean down and executed a text book heel hook. Great example of how being well rounded works.

Another example of how even a simple move executed by an MMA practitioner, not a master grappler, earned him a victory against a much, much stronger opponent.

Sure it was in the ring, but you can make up a scenario where I don't know - Bean and Sudo were in a bar, Bean gets angry at Sudo and tries to manhandle him, which people still do these days.

[Tom Yum]

Originally Posted by BoarSpear

No Ma'am.

It doesn't fit in with my new years resolutions.

you remembered.lol

[Uke]

Mike I'm going to make this as short as possible.

I'm not the only one who feels the way I do here. IPON took the time out to reply and address many of the things you've written and he beautifully refuted them all. You glossed over that too. There right in post #167 if you missed it.

Second, I know that many SD schools adopt MMA for the reasons that I gave because I know many people who run the schools. PERIOD! You can dismiss this point, but until you run your own school and keep it open with just boxing, then you're playing the assumption game again.

Next, and I feel this needs to be said ... Just because you've gotten something to work for you doesn't mean that it isn't irresponsible to advocate a method that may be risky or dangerous.

Next, I didn't need to come up with anything better than "Maybe those things are missing in YOUR school". It wasn't an attack, just a statement meant to let you know you can't name a reputable school where what you wrote applies. And you still haven't. PERIOD.

Last but not least, all the things you've written in your last post here are addressing points that have already been discussed and addressed. You always do this. You never stick to the topic or points at hand, and decide to go on and on about what you feel I've implied, instead of just reading what I've written.

Post #60 on this topic addresses all the things you've decided to argue today, Mike. Please re-read it and see that most of the minor points that you're speaking about now have already been agreed to and done away with.

Oh and Mike, don't start putting up Vunak as some name that is beyond reproach here. I haven't had to drop one name because my points and arguments have been strong enough to speak for themselves. I have no intentions of discussing your instructor's merits or experience, but if you're going to try to strengthen your arguments with simple name dropping then you're going to change the very nature of this debate. I'm letting you know ahead of time.

[jubaji]

Originally Posted by pUke

I haven't had to drop one name because my points and arguments have been strong enough to speak for themselves.

Only in your little pea brain.....

[Uke]

Originally Posted by Tom Yum

The same could be said of boxers, muaythai kickboxers, wrestlers etc.

The same could be said about the same skill set making them seem more competitive, but you couldn't say that these athletes make claims of being more rounded. That's reserved for MMA.

Originally Posted by Tom Yum

They are called well-rounded because they can do many of the things proficiently and pull them off when others cant. Who would win in a NHB situation in an alley where a fight has escalated - pick Frank Shamrock, Bas Rutten, Marco Ruas, Paul Erickson etc at their best versus any heavyweight boxing champ, K-1 champ - I'd give it to those MMA guys.

Tom, we've had this debate before. MMA are not proficient at any one range. And your point about who would win between MMA or boxing/K-1 in an alley is meaningless here. K-1 fighters and boxers are aware that they're training for sports. MMA fighters are the only ones who seem to be indifferent about that.

Originally Posted by Tom Yum

Even Pro's cross train.

Shannon Briggs was a top-heavyweight contender who cross trained in MMA. He did rather well in K-1 because of his superior boxing skills - KO-ing an MMA fighter in the first round.

When asked if he would continue fighting in K-1 after this fight, he decided against it because he admitted that he can't take leg kicks and thus ended his kickboxing career after his first match, despite a handsome victory.

In an unrelated incident, Briggs got into a brawl at a party with a few pro-NFL defensive linemen. One of them tried to tackle Briggs and slam him around like a rag doll - thankfully Briggs had cross trained in grappling and was able to get back on his feet and pummel the daylight out of these hulking athletes. They took him to court over it. Imagine if Briggs couldn't fight off his feet, they would have stomped him good.

Tom, your example of Shannon Briggs is just as bad as your last example of Lucia Rijker. Shannon is a journeyman who is usually cannon fodder for up and comers. He got lucky against Liakhovich recently, but he couldn't even celebrate because he was doubled over from exhaustion in a fight that he threw less than 100 punches in 12 rounds. So it makes sense that you'd highlight a boxer like Briggs to strengthen your argument. Briggs is also a part time model and actor. Maybe he can add that to his crosstraining resume too. And don't make me look for the film where Rijker gets immediate knocked out by a kickboxer when she ventures out of women's boxing. Please.

Originally Posted by Tom Yum

Another classic example of cross training is the Sudo vs. Butterbean fight. Let's face it, Sudo would have flat out lost to Butterbean if had been a boxing venue - you can't make up for a 150-lb weight difference in boxing alone - but the little guy figured out how to get Bean down and executed a text book heel hook. Great example of how being well rounded works.

Sure it was in the ring, but you can make up a scenario where I don't know - Bean and Sudo were in a bar, Bean gets angry at Sudo and wanted to manhandle him a little.

Karate, kung fu, savate, and most other arts have kicked and punched before MMA existed. Those arts have been well rounded before you or I existed. So its a bit silly to begin pretending that the well roundness of kicking, punching and other striking began with MMA events. The roundness term comes from the fact that MMA threw submission wrestling into the mix. NOT A THING ELSE.

But thanks for stopping by, Tom. Always great to see you.