Mixed Martial Arts, One of the oldest forms of fighting.

[BoarSpear]

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

For the record, my own curriculum is a matter for my students. If you care to pay the membership fee, you'll have total access.

Right back at ya bucko. I've got well over 20 gigs of video ONLINE available of techniques and training thats accessed by operators and students all over the globe...We're on a break from a 10 day blade camp...hence my dropping by its the first chance I've had to fuk off...

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

What can I say? I trained over 5,000 deploying troops last year for combat, and not one of them has been killed or injured since going. Not one of them has been killed or injured since going. Let me say that again. Not one of the troops I trained for war has been killed or injured in combat since I trained them. Those are not estimates, by the way. They are stats kept by the DoD. So something must be working, eh? After all, my student body has been at war in the most hostile region on God's earth and they've all been coming home safe and sound. The guys I have who aren't military have been doing things here like winning the State's Golden Gloves tournaments and keeping police and security jobs without injury. All in all, that makes me feel pretty good. SO thanks for asking.

HOLY SHIT!! I'm sure as superstitious soldiers in the field and families are they will ALL be so thrilled you said that to prove your E-Baddassness.

[BoarSpear]

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

Sincerest apologies. I was typing while you were asking your question.

I don't honestly know what percentage of the SFCQ (if that's even the official term) hand to hand course is MMA based. As you're well aware, my company's contract was terminated in June, so I have not been doing any training in an official capacity since that time. I have however worked with approximately 1,000 soldiers from combat arms and combat support MOS's on a volunteer (unpaid) basis since June, and I can tell you that roughly 25% of their time - a total of 80 hours out of 8 weeks - is spent on MMA type combatives. By comparison, roughly 20 hours (1/4 of that number) is spent on rifle marksmanship.

And it's so ineffective and worthless that not one of the soldiers I've trained has even been injured in combat. Oh wait. I mentioned that already.

Could it be thats because its FREE to let them wrestle etc but letting them expend ammo cost money....You do know about SF people in Afghanistan buying/borrowing their ammo from other countries SF because the ammo they were supplied didn't function and was low bid and made in PAKISTAN?

Oh yeah I heard you, Believe me I heard you...I just can't believe you're that big a dickhead.

[jubaji]

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

B] I recognize my own ignorance. Why don't you pony up and do the same?

Everyone reading this thread (and every other thread he has vomited into) knows why.

[Uke]

Wow, you go out for a while and a lot can happen!

Keep in mind, it was Boarspear that said he didn't watch sports, not me. I am a big boxing fan and have been around it my whole life. I watch some MMA when its available, but I wouldn't pay to see it. I'd much rather watch boxing.

Boar, I think you're getting sucked in a little "bait and trap" game here. MMA desperados will bombard you with so many posts that the minute you don't answer one, you're said to be weak or uninformed.

What it boils down to is that for all the events that they can name, they will NEVER tell you a time when an MMA has done well in a full contact weapon tournament. Mike admits that the reality of non-rule based combat is weapons, but advocates going out and putting energy into contests that are sporting to use for real fights. Go figure!! So basically, Mike is telling everyone to go train your brain for sportive responses to lethal situations. A guy pulls out a knife, Mike will tell you to throw a low kick and box him. A guy produces a pair of brass knuckles, and Mike will tell you to push him back as sort of a reset, so when the guy approaches again, he can work whatever technique he has in mind. But wouldn't it have been more intelligent to jump on the guy and commence to beating the shit out of him as soon as he went for the weapon or even as soon as you saw it? Why give him a chance to kill you? BECAUSE ITS THE MMA FAIR FIGHT MINDSET!!! Hooray!

If the debate at hand is about MMA not being reality, then we've made our point a thousand times. If the point that Mike and company is trying to drive home is that MMA is as close to reality as you can come without risking death, then they are wrong again! I previously agreed to that point as a measure of giving a little and taking a little. But MMA is hardly the closest that you can come to reality when there are full contact weapon contests popping up all around the country.

Its hilarious to see everyone pile up on you once I was gone for just a day. But do you know what? They shame themselves because instead of using this time to formulate a stronger argument, all they've done is add more suppositions and insults.

MMA advocates on this site insist that MMA combat training methods(not MMA conditioning methods) are adequate enough to use when training for survival in situations where your life is on the line. That's what Mike Brewer has been saying THIS ENTIRE TIME. He speaks of being hit, pain tolerance, mental toughness and other qualities that are much more necessary against weapons than they are against man to man. And you see EVERY ONE of those qualities in full contact weapon tournaments. You see them much more abundantly there than you do in MMA, but let me play the assuming game right along with Mike and say that he probably doesn't know that!

Mike also asks questions like "Then why do the Dog Brothers train in MMA if its so non-real?". The Dog Brothers don't train in MMA. MMA are pseudo-kickboxers who now train in submission wrestling. Look at what the top guy. Look at what the originator had in mind. Eric Knaus is a hardcore weapons man and the best of the Dog Brothers trained by Gaje here in NY in Jamaica, Queens. He always advocated training without pads and the pain and injuries would make you faster, stronger and better. Marc Denny started to put his mix of things in later, but Eric Knaus was a full contact weapons man, not a roll around on the ground man. They would practice in that fashion for hours. And guess who wouldn't play with the big dogs when they first got together? Guess who began advising people NOT to go spar with Eric Knaus? You might have guessed it. It was Paul Vunak. So it makes sense that you feel the way that you do, Mike.

And by the way, just because the Dog Brothers acknowledge that they need to be prepared if they get taken down doesn't make them MMA. That would mean that BJJ players are MMA fighters as well, but they aren't. Royce Gracie is NOT an MMA fighter, but he'll punch and kick until he gets close enough to grapple! Rickson punched and kicked all of the time but he is a BJJ man! Renzo knocked out Taktarov with a kick, but he is a BJJ player! The Dog Brothers are doing what I've been advocating. Learning newaza techniques to get back off the ground without taking serious damage. I'm sure if some people want to further their study of BJJ, it's their option. But the practical application of reality techniques comes from weapon offense and takedown and ground grappling defense.

Last, even at Dog Brother's events they're using pads these days. THESE type of events are as close as you can get to reality without the death. But there are many injuries. And there is a resemblance to real combat in that you'll see less stupid risks taken because even though its not a kill or be killed situation, you can still get really hurt in these competitions.

The way an intelligent man fights is designed around the most lethal ways that he can be harmed and/or killed which are edged weapons and firearms. His goal is to work smarter, not harder. His training is geared to maximize his efforts by being armed and dirty, not to be fair or fun.

Now if you want to go ahead with Mike's advice, you can look forward to team spirit, camaraderie and a sportive attitude towards dealing with gang members, muggers and rapists. But anyone who can put their personal feelings aside, be honest with themselves and remain open-minded just received the message directly above in bold letters. Sportive methods are designed to be used against other sportive methods. And while I'm positive that a professional MMA fighter who is in top shape would mangle the average mugger if it were a clean, one on one fair fight, its almost never that way. And when Mike argues that most street altercations aren't lethal most of the time, he's telling you in an indirect manner that you don't have to be prepared for them when they are.

[DickHardman]

Originally Posted by Uke

Wow, you go out for a while and a lot can happen!

Keep in mind, it was Boarspear that said he didn't watch sports, not me. I am a big boxing fan and have been around it my whole life. I watch some MMA when its available, but I wouldn't pay to see it. I'd much rather watch boxing.

Boar, I think you're getting sucked in a little "bait and trap" game here. MMA desperados will bombard you with so many posts that the minute you don't answer one, you're said to be weak or uninformed.

What it boils down to is that for all the events that they can name, they will NEVER tell you a time when an MMA has done well in a full contact weapon tournament. Mike admits that the reality of non-rule based combat is weapons, but advocates going out and putting energy into contests that are sporting to use for real fights. Go figure!! So basically, Mike is telling everyone to go train your brain for sportive responses to lethal situations. A guy pulls out a knife, Mike will tell you to throw a low kick and box him. A guy produces a pair of brass knuckles, and Mike will tell you to push him back as sort of a reset, so when the guy approaches again, he can work whatever technique he has in mind. But wouldn't it have been more intelligent to jump on the guy and commence to beating the shit out of him as soon as he went for the weapon or even as soon as you saw it? Why give him a chance to kill you? BECAUSE ITS THE MMA FAIR FIGHT MINDSET!!! Hooray!

If the debate at hand is about MMA not being reality, then we've made our point a thousand times. If the point that Mike and company is trying to drive home is that MMA is as close to reality as you can come without risking death, then they are wrong again! I previously agreed to that point as a measure of giving a little and taking a little. But MMA is hardly the closest that you can come to reality when there are full contact weapon contests popping up all around the country.

Its hilarious to see everyone pile up on you once I was gone for just a day. But do you know what? They shame themselves because instead of using this time to formulate a stronger argument, all they've done is add more suppositions and insults.

MMA advocates on this site insist that MMA combat training methods(not MMA conditioning methods) are adequate enough to use when training for survival in situations where your life is on the line. That's what Mike Brewer has been saying THIS ENTIRE TIME. He speaks of being hit, pain tolerance, mental toughness and other qualities that are much more necessary against weapons than they are against man to man. And you see EVERY ONE of those qualities in full contact weapon tournaments. You see them much more abundantly there than you do in MMA, but let me play the assuming game right along with Mike and say that he probably doesn't know that!

Mike also asks questions like "Then why do the Dog Brothers train in MMA if its so non-real?". The Dog Brothers don't train in MMA. MMA are pseudo-kickboxers who now train in submission wrestling. Look at what the top guy. Look at what the originator had in mind. Eric Knaus is a hardcore weapons man and the best of the Dog Brothers trained by Gaje here in NY in Jamaica, Queens. He always advocated training without pads and the pain and injuries would make you faster, stronger and better. Marc Denny started to put his mix of things in later, but Eric Knaus was a full contact weapons man, not a roll around on the ground man. They would practice in that fashion for hours. And guess who wouldn't play with the big dogs when they first got together? Guess who began advising people NOT to go spar with Eric Knaus? You might have guessed it. It was Paul Vunak. So it makes sense that you feel the way that you do, Mike.

And by the way, just because the Dog Brothers acknowledge that they need to be prepared if they get taken down doesn't make them MMA. That would mean that BJJ players are MMA fighters as well, but they aren't. Royce Gracie is NOT an MMA fighter, but he'll punch and kick until he gets close enough to grapple! Rickson punched and kicked all of the time but he is a BJJ man! Renzo knocked out Taktarov with a kick, but he is a BJJ player! The Dog Brothers are doing what I've been advocating. Learning newaza techniques to get back off the ground without taking serious damage. I'm sure if some people want to further their study of BJJ, it's their option. But the practical application of reality techniques comes from weapon offense and takedown and ground grappling defense.

Last, even at Dog Brother's events they're using pads these days. THESE type of events are as close as you can get to reality without the death. But there are many injuries. And there is a resemblance to real combat in that you'll see less stupid risks taken because even though its not a kill or be killed situation, you can still get really hurt in these competitions.

The way an intelligent man fights is designed around the most lethal ways that he can be harmed and/or killed which are edged weapons and firearms. His goal is to work smarter, not harder. His training is geared to maximize his efforts by being armed and dirty, not to be fair or fun.

Now if you want to go ahead with Mike's advice, you can look forward to team spirit, camaraderie and a sportive attitude towards dealing with gang members, muggers and rapists. But anyone who can put their personal feelings aside, be honest with themselves and remain open-minded just received the message directly above in bold letters. Sportive methods are designed to be used against other sportive methods. And while I'm positive that a professional MMA fighter who is in top shape would mangle the average mugger if it were a clean, one on one fair fight, its almost never that way. And when Mike argues that most street altercations aren't lethal most of the time, he's telling you in an indirect manner that you don't have to be prepared for them when they are.

sorry bro, but you really need to stfu.

[Uke]

Originally Posted by DickHardman

sorry bro, but you really need to stfu.

I'd love to DickHardman. I really, really, would. But I know that people like you would then go on talking endless shit about things that you don't know about. And you know that you don't know anything and that's why you never write anything intelligently.

Its fine if you want to live in the world of fantasy combat. No one would say a thing to any of you sea monkeys if you'd just stop making ridiculous comparisons between mock and reality combat methods. There's no reason for you and people like you to pretend that what you're able to pull off in the sandbox will work once you leave the kiddie park and enter the street.

[DickHardman]

i think you need to stop trolling the mma forum and get a life.

[J-Luck]

Why are you guys still debating him? After he tried to argue the army doesn't use bjj for weapon defense and MMA as an official combatatives program, people should have understood how idiodic he is.

Logic and reasoning are not Uke's strong points, nor are they characteristics that he even pretends to exibit.

Oh, just to show you your lack of insight, intelligence, and research skills, here is the official website. http://www.moderncombatives.org/training.html

[J-Luck]

Any effective martial arts system must have a base that ties all of its techniques together. For example, many Philippine systems use the techniques of stick fighting as their base. Familiarization with the techniques translates into both empty hand and bladed weapon techniques. So the fighter can easily flow between the different types of combat with the same techniques.

Along these same lines, NinJitsu and many Japanese Jiu-Jitsu systems teach stick fighting as an extension of standing grappling techniques. The stick serves more to increase the fighters leverage for the same techniques than as a stand-alone weapon.

In this same way the concept of dominant body position from Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is the base for Modern Combatives. The dominant positions are the spine that connects all of the techniques. A fighter always knows what he is fighting for. Even one class can then produce a better fighter by simply giving him a sense of what his objective is.

The reason that the ground grappling technique of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is so advanced is that it is practiced in “free play”. In other words you can actually do it, real-time, against a fully resisting opponent. It is this concept of “free play” that all of the base arts of Modern Combatives have in common. Wrestling, Judo, Boxing, Muay Thai, its easy to see the connection. Each of these however not only exhibits the strength of free play training, but also its weakness. The practitioners of each have allowed their particular arena to become the focus of their training.

By looking for the limitations of each form of free play, we can identify where the artificial boundaries have been placed between the techniques and consciously work to reintegrate them. As a fighter begins to learn how the techniques fit together. The principle factor is range.

The three basic ranges of combat are: projectile weapon range, striking range, and grappling range. As he becomes more competent and confident moving between the ranges, the concepts of controlling the angle and the level are introduced. Soldiers are taught that the fighter who controls the range, angle, and level can dictate what techniques will dominate the fight.

As fighters progress through the system, they learn the language of fighting, understanding what is happening at any time during the fight. This is a prerequisite to understanding fight strategy. To be successful, a fighter must have a strategy. For instance, a boxer has the basic strategy of striking his opponent with his fists until he is rendered unconscious. The basic fight strategy that we teach is: close the distance, gain a dominant position, and finish the fight. As a fighter develops higher-level skills he also gains the ability to use the higher-level strategies that are dependent on those skills.

In real fights people bite, shove their thumb in your eye, grab your testicles and more significantly have friends with weapons who are more than happy to jump in. These things must always be considered during training. You may never know that your enemy is armed until it is too late. You must therefore always assume that he is. Your techniques must always be grounded in these realities.

Just as we teach techniques in order, based on the ease with which they can be learned, we also teach from the simplest scenarios building to the more complex. The difference is only one of degrees. The techniques and strategies for instance that are used for one on one unarmed fighting must teach the principles and body mechanics necessary to learn the higher level techniques required in more difficult scenarios such as armed opponents or multiple enemies.




This is from the site under the heading, "training".

[J-Luck]

One more thing. Those guys you mentioned... and MANY MANY MORE... are not TMA anymore, they are MMA guys. They all say it. In interviews, on their websites... and so on. Included in this is Chuck Liddell, Bas Rutten, Randy Couture, Matt Hughes, BJ Penn, Sean Sherk, Jeff Monson, Dean Lister, and the list goes ON.

I really would love to name more, but I think others will get the point(something you probably wont be able to do, becuase of course, your crit. thinking skills are somewhat... lacking).

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

Originally Posted by BoarSpear

...the original art was taught to the Military and is 18 simple moves that resulted in either a broken neck or snapped limb period. All counters did more damage than the original attack, there are no breakfalls because that requires stopping fighting. It most definitely is not a sport, do they combine it with the folk wrestling they do? No. Do the folk wrestlers know this form and use its associated training techniques? Probably not, it isn't a sport. NONE of the attacks are legal in ANY ring anywhere.

Just curious.... can you describe these throws??? Im aware of many throws that can kill or cripple people if executed a certain way, but they are still used in competition.

And arent you against using throws or any type of grappling in a fight because you can get stabbed? or did you contradict yourself?

[Tom Yum]

If you're trying to disarm someone with a knife, you're put into a grappling situation because you're trying to control that arm.

I know nothing about Mongolian wrestling other from what I've read. It's still practiced as a sport and there are several versions of it, some which allow sweeping, some which allow grabbing the legs (like freestyle) and some which allow kicks.

The mongolians compete in Chinese shuajiao and seem to dominate. Some go into Sanshou - same thing. Geriletu is a mongolian wrestler who transitioned to san shou and seems to have done decently.

Again, I have no experience in the art - but I'm thinking its something akin to catch wrestling or pankration.

[Tom Yum]

Originally Posted by Uke

Tom, we've had this debate before. MMA are not proficient at any one range. And your point about who would win between MMA or boxing/K-1 in an alley is meaningless here. K-1 fighters and boxers are aware that they're training for sports. MMA fighters are the only ones who seem to be indifferent about that.

I think you are referring to guys who've never trained outside of MMA.

MMA is a sport and is sufficient for self-defense in a lot of cases. Look if someone gets me in a headlock and I sweep them to the ground and lapel choke them, that's much more humane (and more legally justifiable use of force) than other release maneuvers. If you're life really is threatened, I can see where you want the later.

Originally Posted by Uke

So it makes sense that you'd highlight a boxer like Briggs to strengthen your argument. Briggs is also a part time model and actor. Maybe he can add that to his crosstraining resume too. And don't make me look for the film where Rijker gets immediate knocked out by a kickboxer when she ventures out of women's boxing. Please..

The facts still remain.

Briggs KO'd an MMA fighter in the first round, decided that he'd rather not fight in K-1 because he can't handle leg kicks. He still had to use his skills in a real confrontation against two athletic monsters who would have otherwise stomped him into the ground.

You can make fun of his modeling/acting and cross-training but the facts speak for themselves.

Originally Posted by Uke

Karate, kung fu, savate, and most other arts have kicked and punched before MMA existed. Those arts have been well rounded before you or I existed. So its a bit silly to begin pretending that the well roundness of kicking, punching and other striking began with MMA events. The roundness term comes from the fact that MMA threw submission wrestling into the mix. NOT A THING ELSE..

The reason why karate, kung-fu and savate lost its popularity in the US is because they became less and less full-contact and more and more excercise; other traditional martial arts like muaythai, kyokushin and jiujitsu (both traditional and brazillian) never lost their full-contact, spontaneous flavor.

The instructor still has to pay bills and if he can't give customers what they want, he'll have to close his school. Apparently, many who train in MA want easy training and are happy to shell out the $$$$ to get the next rank, shed a few pounds and learn about another culture. The MMA movement has taken the students that tried out these kinds of schools and could not get dynamic, live-training.

I have trained with Korean/Japanese/Chinese stylists who were the real deal, so I know those systems can be effective. I've never doubted them, because I have seen them use their stuff - but its the fact that these men (MA instructors) had to water down their training to keep their business running and reduce injuries in their dojang or guan.

I'm not an MMA nuthugger, but I'm not arguing opinions here.

Briggs still KO'd an MMA fighter in the first round (as a boxer) but retired because he can't handle leg kicks. He cross trained and later got into an altercation which he got out of, because of his cross-training and had to pay fines for hurting two superior athletes whom would have otherwise stomped him.

This is how being well-rounded is a benefit.

Originally Posted by Uke

But thanks for stopping by, Tom. Always great to see you.

My pleasure.

[Tom Yum]

Lastly, what's wrong with comraderie among martial artists? You keep dogging on the Marine Corps mentality and comraderie.

Most Chinese and Japanese MA (and even Chinese-Japanese mixed styles) are organized by families (or clans) with which there is great comraderie within that family.

In those styles it is very important.

[Garland]

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

I saw him learning Thai Boxing and BJJ from Jean Jacques Machado, Shooto from Yori and Erik.

Speaking of which...Sensei Paulson is one funny dude.
This was back in 2005 I think, he's working with two of my old trainers and stable mates, Coach Brandon Kiser and Khru Brian Yamasaki...if you look closely, the kid with the black afro sitting in the righthand corner is me..(one with yellow thai shorts, and the other with just normal shorts)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxGhfvBOaGE

This one is hillarious
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaO7V...elated&search=