Mixed Martial Arts, One of the oldest forms of fighting.

[jubaji]

Originally Posted by pUke

Wow, you're back Jubbi? You were so quiet for so long

Was I quiet?

[Sagacious Lu]

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

And Uke, I think you're losing me. You're vastly oversimplifying MMA, my friend. It has developed, and there have been major evolutions in how the game is played. I can cite for you a very clear example using one man as the common denominator - Matt Hughes. Gracie used to beat everyone, and Matt proved that conditioning and a familiarity with srtiking could supplement the ground game and provide an serious advantage. He ruined the guy who built the sport. Then, along comes St. Pierre. St. Pierre was even more well-rounded, but instead of going to the ground, he preferred to gear his strategy toward shutting it down and hone his strikes. His well roundedness and conditioning paid off. That's not only a difference in strategy - it's an evolution within a sport. The good strikers from even two or three years ago are being outpaced by the good strikers of today. Look at Rich Franklin. Look at Hughes. Saying that MMA is not evolving is like saying boxing hasn't evolved since Dempsey's heyday.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

Nonsense. I can point out dozens of examples of kickboxers who moved over to MMA, Wrestlers who moved to Sambo, MMA, or Pride, and all manner of martial artisits from different disciplines who felt they had to prove something beyond their style. Ken Shamrock, Keith Hackney, and plenty of others fit this bill. Lu, I don't know if you've ever trained regularly at a boxing gym or not, and I won't make assumptions. But I can tell you that in all the gyms and with all the boxers I've ever trained, no boxer has ever showed the same concern for whether or not his skills would measure up in some other sport as almost every martial artist out there.

Sure you've got people who compete in different sports and who change disciplines. You didn't even mention one of my favorites, Mirko "Crocop" who made a very successful transition from kick boxing to MMA. There are lots of boxers who have competed in other sports too for that matter. My point is that if you look at MMA competitors they aren't pretending to be wrestlers, judoka or boxers- unless they happen to have that in their background. If you go to an MMA gym they aren't pretending to be preparing themselves for anything other than MMA.
I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with, but you know from our conversations on here that I currently train at a boxing gym. With luck I may be able to come out to your high altitude training center, or if you're ever in Atl. by all means drop by and visit our gym. Seriously, that's a friendly invitation and if you ever do make it I'll spring for a pitcher of beer in the name of southern hospitality. When that happens you'll be able to see my skills for yourself; I'm not anything special but it will be obvious to you that I spend a lot of time training. Until then you'll just have to take my word for it.

If you need proof, just can through or do a search in any martial arts forum on the web for posts like "Which art would win in a fight?" Then go look for anything of the sort on a boxing forum.

This is kind of beside the point; you can find morons of all shapes and sizes on the internet. What I'm trying to say is that generally speaking once someone is an experienced sportsman (of any sort) they usually understand what their sport is and isn't. They also usually stop making insecure attacks on other styles/sports. Hell, I would go so far as to say that that understanding is part of good sportsmanship. Unfortunately sportsmanship can be hard to come by sometimes...

[Uke]

Originally Posted by jubaji

Oh, that's a funny charge coming from the likes of you!

You're like a retarded Magic 8 Ball with tourette's syndrome, jubaji. Pathetic one liners, but so angry.

[WuChi]

Originally Posted by jubaji

Oh, that's a funny charge coming from the likes of you!

Whys that? He has made some sense, where are you just babble on and no one wants to hear it. I can tell by your posts that you immature, so dont bother talking to me mate, im not listlening.

[jubaji]

Originally Posted by WuChi

I totally agree with you on that mate. as for the rest of you wanabe, why is it that you say things like. "boxers dont care how their STYLe fares out of the ring", thats fucking nonsense., if his life depended on it he would. And another point, I dont think peole are stupid enough these days to say hez a boxer, karate etc. He is a fucking human being, and the way he trained is important, but it will never change what he is. More corect way of saying it would be a " a fighter who trains in boxing", can you buy boxing, taekwon do etc? Theydont exist, only knowledge and abilities do. You dumbasses, with the exeption of Dick and a few others. The forum is full of intellegnet people, adn children unfortunately.

Here you go, champ. http://www.worldwidelearn.com/langua...esl-course.htm

[jubaji]

Originally Posted by WuChi

Whys that? He has made some sense, where are you just babble on and no one wants to hear it. I can tell by your posts that you immature, so dont bother talking to me mate, im not listlening.

You're not listlening? Not listlening? Oh, I just hate it when you don't listlen!

[jubaji]

Originally Posted by pUke

You're like a retarded Magic 8 Ball with tourette's syndrome, jubaji. Pathetic one liners, but so angry.

Another poor attempt. Keep trying, champ!

[WuChi]

Just ignore him mate, he talks total trash. And HIS CP is Incorrect, He is located elsewhere. I have his IP, and will kick him off in a min.

[jubaji]

I thought you weren't listlening?

[Uke]

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

And Uke, I think you're losing me. You're vastly oversimplifying MMA, my friend. It has developed, and there have been major evolutions in how the game is played. I can cite for you a very clear example using one man as the common denominator - Matt Hughes. Gracie used to beat everyone, and Matt proved that conditioning and a familiarity with srtiking could supplement the ground game and provide an serious advantage. He ruined the guy who built the sport. Then, along comes St. Pierre. St. Pierre was even more well-rounded, but instead of going to the ground, he preferred to gear his strategy toward shutting it down and hone his strikes. His well roundedness and conditioning paid off. That's not only a difference in strategy - it's an evolution within a sport. The good strikers from even two or three years ago are being outpaced by the good strikers of today. Look at Rich Franklin. Look at Hughes. Saying that MMA is not evolving is like saying boxing hasn't evolved since Dempsey's heyday.

And competition does indeed stimulate evolution because it provides a cross section of the training public with the very neccesity you're referring to.

The last thing I want to do is rekindle a tired old debate about the value of MMA. But the fact is, if you can see some combative value for boxing, then it shouldn't be much of a stretch for you to see some in MMA as well. Both are sports, after all, and one is vastly more limited than the other.

Well Mike, I might have lost you because I'm replying to questions all over the place. But in truth, whether you agree with what I wrote or not didn't make the points any more or less valid. I pretty much said what I came to in the first couple of posts. The facts still stand. I didn't come to rekindle any old debates either.

Besides, a few of us have come to find out that its more fun to fcuk with people here than waste time trying to discuss shit that they only watch on tv and read about.

[WuChi]

Originally Posted by Uke

Well Mike, I might have lost you because I'm replying to questions all over the place. But in truth, whether you agree with what I wrote or not didn't make the points any more or less valid. I pretty much said what I came to in the first couple of posts. The facts still stand. I didn't come to rekindle any old debates either.

Besides, a few of us have come to find out that its more fun to fcuk with people here than waste time trying to discuss shit that they only watch on tv and read about.

This is true man, the rest talk P.I.S.S

[Tom Yum]

Originally Posted by Wu Chi

This is true man, the rest talk P.I.S.S

How are you still talking, "man who never eats"...

[Bjjexpertise@be]

I thought eat in mandarin was "chr"?

[Mike Brewer]

Uke,
For shame! Toying with impressionable young minds. Why, one might say that means you have a lot in common with bitter rival jubaji!

Actually, after our boxing discussions, I've really gained a lot of respect for your opinions on fight sports...boxing, at any rate. I still think you're completely bent on the whole MMA thing, though. That is, if you really believe what you're trying to sell here.

[Uke]

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

Uke,
For shame! Toying with impressionable young minds. Why, one might say that means you have a lot in common with bitter rival jubaji!

Actually, after our boxing discussions, I've really gained a lot of respect for your opinions on fight sports...boxing, at any rate. I still think you're completely bent on the whole MMA thing, though. That is, if you really believe what you're trying to sell here.

See Mike ... that's the thing. I'm not trying to sell anything. I'm not pushing one way over another. I haven't written "Don't do this, instead do that". I just felt like stating the truth. No matter how hard MMA fans want it to be true, MMA isn't anything but kickboxing with some submission wrestling thrown in. You seemed to understand that fact in one of your posts you wrote on this topic. Then, all of a sudden with no new info introduced you began to argue against that point.

Like I said, jack of all trades and masters of none. They aren't good enough to stand up strike with some of the best(K-1). They aren't good enough to dominate grapplers unless they're huge steroid monsters like Mark Kerr(Abu Dhabi). They would be embarrassed in a professional ring against any decent pug(Boxing). And they wouldn't stand a chance in any weapons tournament(especially Dog Brothers type events).

What does all this mean? It means that the MA world is full of guys who feel as though they found a band aid to bridge the gap to competency by training in a ring style created to make the fights last longer and look more competitive.

Mike, if you've agreed that weapons are the reality of the street, then why waste you time pretending that MMA has some ring of reality to it? If you agree that comprehensive self defense/urban combat systems base all of their methods and ideologies on weapons and weapon disarms, how can you find it in yourself to lump that kickboxing ballet shit into the same realm? That casts you into double talking light.

No one ever said that their aren't elements of combat in MMA. A kick is a kick and a punch is still a punch. But its the approach and the methods that are DRASTICALLY different. You won't see a combatives instructor low kicking and jabbing his way in to a knife fight. You definitely won't see him shooting in on a guy who might have a knife or a sap. Why? Because every technique and every move takes weapons into consideration. ITS ALL ABOUT WEAPONS. How many times do I have to write that? BJJ has techniques that are VERY useful if you make them dirty, but those techniques aren't used to grapple on the ground in SD, but to be vicious and dirty while getting back to your feet. I'm not saying that MMA fighters CANNOT make the transition as many older kickboxing legends have made the switch to combatives after retiring. But let's not pretend that they're equipped with those methods as of now.

As you said, if a combatives fighter got in the ring with MMA fighters and fought by their rules, he'd get knocked out. He'd be limiting himself to using what he has in a way that does not maximize his efforts. Its not entirely impossible for him to win, but its unlikely as most combative fighters aren't professional athletes and are not in the shape that professionals are in. But once ALL the rules are removed, combatives are most practical and effective.

For all the things that people here like to pretend that MMA fighters are proficient at, their real strength comes from the condition that they're in and not from their technique. I'll go as far to say that the only real technique that MMA fighters have is when they're on the ground. I'd love to see the day an out of shape MMA guy gets in the ring. He'll gas out in 3 minutes and be useless. We need more Tank Abbott's to prove my point. Real stand up kickboxing techniques looks like the combinations that Ernesto Hoost throws. He's a guy who fights just as beautifully and effective on the inside as he does the outside without having to swing for the stands. And there's nobody in MMA who even comes close to throwing combinations like that. Just some knees and brawling.

Think I'm wrong? I know you do, but that's why Randy Couture, a 40 year old wrestler, was able to outstrike the then thought to be best striker in the UFC, Chuck Liddell. Randy's no boxer, but only after a couple of months of boxing training IN THE BASICS, he was able to totally embarrass Liddell with a simple jab and hook, because Liddell's own striking skills were based on toughness and natural ability, not simple boxing basics. Don't discount this example as it makes an undeniable point. With just a few months of solid basics, a wrestler dominated a stand up striker. And look at Nogueira. After just months of training with the Cuban boxing team, he has risen to a level that let's him compete with the handgame of some of MMA's best. And he's a pure BJJ man! Go figure.

So while MMA is "re-discovering" boxing basics, the rest of the MA world is watching and thinking "You can't be serious". Its amazing how with some PPV's and some magazine articles you can convince some people that you've found something new.

If you want to be a boxer, be a boxer. If you want to be a thai fighter, be a thai fighter. If you want to be a BJJ player, be a BJJ player. But if you want to claim that you are even close to reality and you intend to use techniques from all three, you shouldn't approach and formulate your system using those techniques from a sportive standpoint. And at some point, you should have mastered at least one of those ranges.

As far selling something, that's not even close to what's going on here. Some people are just slower learners than others. Two years ago, many of the things that people have been agreeing with would have caused an uproar. Now, they're slowly becoming more objective and considering things that they would have defended "just because". You've been around long enough to know this is true. So give it time. Who knows? Maybe in a year jubaji might forsake one liners and actually write something pertaining to martial arts. But let's not hold our breaths.