Mixed Martial Arts, One of the oldest forms of fighting.

[Tom Yum]

Originally Posted by Uke

MMA is like a marine mentality method that teaches to "out-tough the son of a bitch by using guts and a superhuman work ethic". I'm sure that appeals to a lot of people.

You forgot about the marine mentality part where every marine is an expert rifleman. Not a bad mentality for self-defense, I'd say since we were discussing urban combatives.

Since he applies that superhuman work ethic and toughness into his rifle, pistol and blade skills, he would be able to protect himself and others rather well.

And no that would not appeal to alot of people, because they'd think there would be some kind of short-cut to higher proficiency in those skills.

Originally Posted by Uke

Mostly young, energetic guys who want to "feel" tough and accepted by the guys they admire.

Are you an avid runner, Uke? I know a half-marathon (13 miles) is nothing for some folks, but how many people do you know can run 1 much less 2 miles and still have the wind, energy and courage to fight, much less 13...

There's no getting around hard work if you want to get better at anything. If you take shortcuts, you're only shortchanging yourself.

MMA is designed for empty-handed self defense and is probably the best training method given the short training time required to be effective, but the most important concept is the theme of cross-training. Many MMA type schools are also affiliated with FMA/edged weapon instructors.

Personally, I have always been a supporter of cross-training because there is always something new to learn about self-defense whether its from tiger-crane gong fu or savate.

I may never become a sifu in that style, but I will take what I've learned and try to use it whether it be just playing around or sparring.

Who knows? I may fall in love with a system and get married to it...

[Uke]

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

I think it's an effective way to train because it instills physical courage, conditioning, open-mindedness, cross training, toughness, and contact as an everyday part of training. Those are all things that apply in real life, and they are woefully absent from many of the so-called "street fighting" oriented schools out there.

Those things may be missing from YOUR school Mike. Not from other top self defense schools. Maybe that's why you needed to go to MMA to supplement what you didn't get. But that's a broad sweeping statement that is predicated on your say so and nothing else. Where are your facts? What did you right to back up that statement? You didn't because its based on Mike's opinion, not on any one fact.

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

Most of the people winning right now aren't doing it on toughness. They're doing it because they're smarter, more well-rounded, and more tactically sound than their opponents. There are slugfests, to be sure. But look at Silva vs Franklin or St. Pierre vs. Hughes and tell me that those were won on toughness. I use them as an example because they are the pinnacle - the example of how the sport looks at the top. And in both cases, the victor was the man who had the better game. In both cases, the victor won without being really rocked or having to show superior toughness. They won because they were better. Saying what you just said there is like saying there's nothing to boxing except being tougher than the other guy. It's borderline dumb.

They are more well rounded that who? Who are you assuming that these men are more well rounded than? Are you suggesting that MMA fighters are more well rounded than Urban combatants or just better conditioned? See, this is what I'm talking about. This is a minor point in the scope of the conversation, but you nitpick on this minor detail instead of addressing the main part of my argument.

The point is in the distinction between real and mocked combat. Methods that were created and tailored to deal with weapons and methods that are sportive for the ring. You AGAIN make this into a case of me attacking MMA fighters for describing what they are and what it is they do when that isn't the case. There were a dozen of other points that I made in my posts, and out of all of them, THIS IS THE ONE YOU CHOSE TO ADDRESS???

I wrote:

BUT THE REAL ISSUE I HAVE HAD HERE ON THIS FORUM IS THAT WHEN THE QUESTION IS ASKED CONCERNING WHAT ART TO TRAIN IN FOR SELF DEFENSE AND PROTECTION PURPOSES, PEOPLE HERE ALWAYS ANSWER BJJ AND MUAY THAI EVEN THOUGH YOU(Mike) AND OTHERS HERE ADMIT OUTRIGHT THAT THE COMBINATION IS SPORTIVE AT BEST!!!

but you never went anywhere near this.

I wrote:

My point is that if your goal is to become proficient at self defense and urban combat then your time would be better spent focusing on those aspects and systems that offer instruction in those methods.

but you never went anywhere near this.

I wrote:

But don't tell people that a method like that is the most comprehensive way to defend yourself or even attack unless you're willing to prove it outside of the ring in competitions that almost always involve weapons. The Dog Brothers competition is probably the most famous, but it isn't the only one or the oldest. These competitions allow grappling and kicking, so there's no reason for MMA fighter's to feel limited in these competitions.

but you never went anywhere near this.

I wrote:

As I said earlier Mike, the scope of reality is based upon weapons because weapons will determine what is and isn't practical. Sure, you can do all types of crazy and risky maneuvers in the ring because you KNOW that you're not going to die for your troubles. When you're training to deal with edged weapons and blunt objects, you can't afford to be shooting in and doing flying knees. I've seen some instructors advocate this in terms of self defense, but ONLY when the attacker is using a knife in a clumsy, looping manner with wide swings. Unless the guy mugging you has no experience whatsoever, he won't be attacking you in that McDojo fashion.

but you never went anywhere near this.

I wrote:

Anybody who would teach their students to attempt risky, unnecessary and flashy techniques doesn't deserve to have students. When your justification of teaching sportive methods to your students as a means of self defense is "I've pulled it off before", then you should never teach.

But you DEFINITELY never went anywhere near that.

My point is that out of all the points that were made, you chose to address the ones that you could pass off opinions as real answers. You could have chosen to discuss any and all of the things I listed, but instead you chose to write about MMA offering benefits that I never denied, and going on about the well roundness of MMA fighters and how skilled they are.

If MMA fighters are so damn skilled and well rounded at fighting in the ring, tell us all Mike why they don't dominate other combat sports like K-1 or professional boxing? Could it be that they are not as skilled and well rounded as you think? Could it be that they just master their own skill sets in their own events and compete against others who use the same skill sets? Why call them well rounded if they fail in other sport-fighting events where specific ranges are tested, and the majority of MMA fail? I said majority, not all. You, like others want to call out the few exceptions, but refuse to acknowledge the rule. When less than 5% of MMA succeed in other events despite being professional athletes in top shape, it DIRECTLY reflects on their skills, not their toughness. You're absolutely right about that, Mike.

You can call into question how combative practitioners would do, but they are not professional fighters or in the shape that professional fighters are in. However, MMA's can always enter the full contact weapon events to see if they are as well rounded as Mike implies, but you don't see that often. And there's no wonder why.

Just so its clear, I'm not being hostile about this. This is way too easy to have to get emotionally invested in.

[JkD187]

Uke and Mike you guys all make some good points...espically what Mike said about MOST fights not being that serious.If everytime a street confrontation got deadly then most people wouldnt be alive since espically as teens there are tons of fights due to many different variables.I honestly believe the best SD is COMMON SENSE.If your leading a good life in the first place and not going out to the clubs/bars all night long getting drunk or hanging around with the wrong crowd on street corners then 98% of all those "street" encounters will be avoided.Now that just leaves the 2% of Deadly encounters you will have in your whole life....now to me 2% is pretty low and im not really worrying about it too much.

[jubaji]

Originally Posted by pUke

If MMA fighters are so damn skilled and well rounded at fighting in the ring, tell us all Mike why they don't dominate other combat sports like K-1 or professional boxing?

If they're so well-rounded (possessing a wide variety of skills) why don't they focus on competing in more specific contests?

This is stupid, even for you.


When you watch a football game (I doubt you do, actually - it would be far too threatening to your fragile ego to see professional athletes) and the announcer comments on how well-rounded an athlete one of the players may be, do you start screaming at the TV, "Oh yeah? Why isn't he an olympic sprinter then? Why isn't he a major league pitcher then?"

Idiot.

[Uke]

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

Finally, Uke,
You made it clear that most people won't spend the time it takes to rise to the level of MMA practitioners in the upper echelon of the sport? Well, it's equally true that most people will not spend the time or effort needed to rise to the level of expert in other arts that might give them that ability to deliver non-telegraphic slashes with a knife or Rob Leatham accuracy with a gun. It all takes work. And while we're talking in probablility, the true life fact is that most street altercations are not all that serious. The ones that are are generally ambushes. So since the vast majority of fights are the kind where a choke hold is a better answer than a broken jaw, doesn't it make sense to train that kind of thing against people who can punch, kick, and stop your choke?

I know what you're saying, bro. And I'm not coming after you personally. What I'm trying to address is that MMA training is likely - likely, not certainly - more useful than you believe. I'm also trying to point out that you are heavily biased, based on your posts, and not simply "pointing out differences." You don't post in support of MMA in any respect, and yet you feel a real pull to reply to any post similar to this that draws a comparison. You tend to come in on the downside of MMA any time the topic comes up. That's not comparative, my friend. It's a one-sided opinion that has thus far refused to even acknowledge the opposing viewpoints. You're not wrong in saying that MMA alone is not a good answer for street confrontations. You're exactly right, in fact. But you're talking to someone who's been in a lot of fights, and I mean a lot. I've been in them in bars, in hospital psych wards, in alleyways and pool halls, and in the line of duty while armed. I've seen it from a lot of sides. And that experience, those bruises, bumps, scrapes, cuts, punctures, and life lessons have taught me that the kind of training MMA people do is invaluable to anyone who's looking to get better at real-world self-defense. It does teach you to work hard in training. It does teach you to be tough. It does teach you to expect pain. And if used in a supplemental role, it teaches you what to do when you find yourself in the far more commonly encountered situation of not having to kill someone. Address those points, Uke, and I'll buy the line that you're just comparing. Comparing, though, includes pointing out the positive right along with the negative. So far, all I've seen from you on this topic is why MMA will never have a place in a streetfighter's training regimen, and that's not only horribly biased and unfounded, it's just not true.

Well Mike you're right. I have been one sided on this topic. But I have expressed in other topics MANY TIMES that MMA fighters are in superior shape and are tough athletes with a superior work ethic. Those words HAVE to sound familiar because I've said them many, many times.

And Mike, just because everyone here doesn't write about their past doesn't mean that they don't have one. I live in NY. I've been gang affiliated. I've worked in bars and clubs in Queens and Manhattan. I've done many things to people that I am not proud of and with age have realized that there are better ways of dealing with people than aggression. But I'm not here to talk about how tough I am. I am here to talk about the things that I know and have kept me alive to type this post. And it wasn't sports.

In almost every post, I've gone on and on about the work ethic, training methods and sport science in MMA. I have given high praise to those methods and have even gone as far to suggest that TMA's who wish to compete in MMA should adopt the training methods and sport science, but keep their original skill sets.

How you missed those posts, I have no idea.

There is value in almost anything, Mike. But there is a place for everything and everything in it's place.

[Uke]

Originally Posted by jubaji

If they're so well-rounded (possessing a wide variety of skills) why don't they focus on competing in more specific contests?

This is stupid, even for you.


When you watch a football game (I doubt you do, actually - it would be far too threatening to your fragile ego to see professional athletes) and the announcer comments on how well-rounded an athlete one of the players may be, do you start screaming at the TV, "Oh yeah? Why isn't he an olympic sprinter then? Why isn't he a major league pitcher then?"

Idiot.

Deion Sanders and Bo Jackson you fucking retard. Both played pro football and pro baseball. Charlie Ward played for the Knicks, but was a Heisman award winner. Roy Jones was a boxing champion who played basketball in the minor leagues. Athletes who are well rounded can compete at the highest levels. But what you failed to address by selectively highlighting that one passage was the fact that I stated MMA fighers are not well rounded but only proficient in their skill set.

But at least you wrote more than a one liner. I'm training you well.

[jubaji]

Originally Posted by pUke

Deion Sanders and Bo Jackson. Both played pro football and pro baseball. Charlie Ward played for the Knicks, but was a Heisman award winner. Roy Jones was a boxing champion who played basketball in the minor leagues. .

What's that you keep crying about? "Exceptions, not the rule"?

[jubaji]

Originally Posted by pUke

I stated MMA fighers are not well rounded but only proficient in their skill set.

Yeah moron, that was the point. Your attempt to 'prove' that fighters competing in a mixed context are not well rounded because they don't specialize in one skill or range is where you displayed your utter failure of logic yet again.

[Uke]

Originally Posted by jubaji

When you watch a football game (I doubt you do, actually - it would be far too threatening to your fragile ego to see professional athletes) and the announcer comments on how well-rounded an athlete one of the players may be, do you start screaming at the TV, "Oh yeah? Why isn't he an olympic sprinter then? Why isn't he a major league pitcher then?"

No, you wouldn't ask why isn't he a sprinter because the comment is meant to convey that the player is great at many aspects of the game(baseball) he participates in.

When you comment that an MMA is well rounded, it also is meant to convey that he is great at many aspects of the game(fighting) he participates in. But when you look at those aspects that he is supposed to be great at, you begin to see that he isn't that great at them afterall when you compare him to OTHER FIGHTERS. MMA's are fighters, and if you go to ANY MMA site on the internet, you'll see posts that discuss and ponder how well MMA fighters would do in boxing and kickboxing. No one compares baseball players to football players, but you guys like to play fantasy football by discussing how well MMA's would do against Bruce Lee, Mike Tyson, and Emin Boztepe.

MMA's punch and have tried to box. MMA's also kick and have tried to match kicks and punches in K-1. So how is the comparison not valid? Is it because in K-1 the fighters won't flop on their asses with their legs open if they get hit?

The truth is that no one except for BJJ players would go to the ground in a fight unless they didn't believe in their own ability to end the fight standing up.

[jubaji]

Originally Posted by pUke

No, you wouldn't ask why isn't he a sprinter because the comment is meant to convey that the player is great at many aspects of the game(baseball) he participates in.

Sprinting is an aspect of baseball (and football, which is what I referred to) idiot.


You can't rescue your stupid comment no matter how hard you try, pUke.

[Uke]

Originally Posted by jubaji

Yeah moron, that was the point. Your attempt to 'prove' that fighters competing in a mixed context are not well rounded because they don't specialize in one skill or range is where you displayed your utter failure of logic yet again.

But fighters in NHB DO specialize in one skill. They're called champions.

Crocop = kicking
Fedor = judo
Nogueira = BJJ
Vanderlei Silva = Muay Thai

These men were TMA's and well versed in what they did before they came to NHB events. They've made some adjustments, but anyone who has eyes can see that they dominate due to their core skills.

[jubaji]

Originally Posted by pUke

The truth is that no one except for BJJ players would go to the ground in a fight unless they didn't believe in their own ability to end the fight standing up.

If a BJJer thought he could finish things standing just as well he'd probably do that too, depending on the circumstances.

[jubaji]

Originally Posted by pUke

These men were TMA's and well versed in what they did before they came to NHB events. They've made some adjustments.

You mean they mixed martial arts? Go figure.

[Uke]

Originally Posted by jubaji

You mean they mixed martial arts? Go figure.

The funniest part about this is that you're now trying to label anyone who has ever punched and kicked at the same time as an MMA fighter. Hehehe ...

Your desperation amuses me.

[jubaji]

Originally Posted by pUke

The funniest part about this is that you're now trying to label anyone who has ever punched and kicked at the same time as an MMA fighter.

You provided the definition, idiot. Don't blame me if you can't keep up with your own words.