Mixed Martial Arts, One of the oldest forms of fighting.

[WuChi]

Im obviously talking about "All powers" or pancration wrestling. Over 200years Old. But what I wanted to get some feedback on is. The UFC was originaly set up to find the "best fighting systems", and like the other compitions in the early phase pitted style against style. And over time we have now realised there is no superior style, only a superior man. In this day in age it is difficult to say that guys a... and so on, becasue of the free-style approach. Bruce Lee pointed this out along time ago, and the acients of over 200years ago knew that there was only a fighter. But now there are still peole who kwoble over which style is better, its ridiculus. I just wonder how slow the evelution of martial arts will be, it seems that conversations are going stale. We need to stop putting things into compartments, like saying you belong to a perticular truth, the definition of what a martial artist is, is in the beholder, and can change from person to person and time to time.

[Bjjexpertise@be]

2 words: Spell Check.

The reason people quarrel over which martial art is superior is because it is their way of trying to find confirmation that they have picked the right martial art to train in. Also, people have got to stop using the same "it's not the art it's the fighter" bullshit time and time again. True that the fighter's qualities and traits matter but it's his training that teaches him and prepares him for the battle.

[DickHardman]

style matters somewhat. thats why mma fighters favor training in certain arts over others.

[Uke]

Originally Posted by DickHardman

style matters somewhat. thats why mma fighters favor training in certain arts over others.

Actually, MMA fighters favor the method that they do because it makes for more competitive fights, not because its the most effective way to end a fight.

MMA has been around since about 1996-1997. Some NHB veterans created a style comprised of ring techniques to make some of the younger guys more competitive. Low thai boxing kicks. Decent boxing hand skills. Decent wrestling and submission skills. They basically made a crash course in boxing and kickboxing along with submission wrestling and taught it to most of the new guys who wanted to compete.

Some people love to say that MMA is predicated and shows what works, but it totally neglects the close quarter range aside from some thai knees. MMA, and systems like say ... kajukenbo are NOT the same.

Kajukenbo is an eclectic style, but it isn't a mixed martial art in the same regard as MMA. Kajukenbo and other styles that are eclectic are combined over time after seeking practicality in every component that they include. These arts were created so that weaker opponents could stand a chance and survive an attack against stronger opponents.

MMA is a system of ring proven techniques including BJJ that are meant to help a fighter pace himself, keep a certain distance and go for a couple of rounds. While every MMA fighter would love to win as quickly as possible, we often see that they don't and such is the necessity for rounds.

Very few styles, including traditional martial arts are 100% of themselves. Most styles borrow ideas and methods from other systems and styles. Whether is a choke, hold, lock or even certain strikes can be seen in many systems, but were borrowed from another source.

But the difference between those TMA's and MMA's is that the TMA's devoted to self defense were always seeking a quick conclusion and developed their methods towards getting them. MMA's create professional athletes that can circle each other for 3 or 4 rounds, jabbing and throwing low kicks and the occasional high roundhouse, until one guy executes a throw or shoots in and tries to make it a ground affair, neither ending the fight.

MMA pits strength against strength, which has NEVER been the goal of combat. You're supposed to attack weakness, not strength. TMA systems have always relied on counter attacking, although there are times when a strong offense needs to be used. But even then it works off surprise, or an explosive, abrupt initiation. This is why so many people have been lost and think that they've reinvented the wheel with MMA. They don't realize that there is a difference between self defense and dueling(MMA).

In self defense, you attack weakness or take advantage of unawareness.

MMA is basically a duel, or mutually agreed upon combat. All your cards are on the table. Your opponent knows you're going to attack. Your opponent knows how you generally fight. You and your opponent both KNOW that the worst that is going to happen is getting knocked unconscious, and therefore don't mind taking unnecessary risks and won't fight as cautiously because you KNOW that your life isn't on the line.

You don't have the luxury of that knowledge beforehand in reality. You don't have the luxury of knowing that you won't get gang stomped if you lay on the ground to work submissions. You can't tap out. You can get stabbed or shot at any point. So you HAVE to fight differently because the combat environment is different.

Combat is about survival against unknown odds.

MMA is about imposing your will against an opponent that has agreed to follow rules so that the damage can only go but so far. No subtleties. No awareness. No weapons, which is as real as it gets.

If anyone thinks that reality fighting is based on mutually agreed combat, then they need to get their money back from whatever gym has been selling them fool's gold. Knowing that the worst that can happen in a fight is something other than death changes everything completely. It becomes a different animal. Its like changing a bull into a cow. They both look similar, but which would you rather play matador with?

[DickHardman]

Originally Posted by Uke

Actually, MMA fighters favor the method that they do because it makes for more competitive fights, not because its the most effective way to end a fight.

MMA has been around since about 1996-1997. Some NHB veterans created a style comprised of ring techniques to make some of the younger guys more competitive. Low thai boxing kicks. Decent boxing hand skills. Decent wrestling and submission skills. They basically made a crash course in boxing and kickboxing along with submission wrestling and taught it to most of the new guys who wanted to compete.

Some people love to say that MMA is predicated and shows what works, but it totally neglects the close quarter range aside from some thai knees. MMA, and systems like say ... kajukenbo are NOT the same.

Kajukenbo is an eclectic style, but it isn't a mixed martial art in the same regard as MMA. Kajukenbo and other styles that are eclectic are combined over time after seeking practicality in every component that they include. These arts were created so that weaker opponents could stand a chance and survive an attack against stronger opponents.

MMA is a system of ring proven techniques including BJJ that are meant to help a fighter pace himself, keep a certain distance and go for a couple of rounds. While every MMA fighter would love to win as quickly as possible, we often see that they don't and such is the necessity for rounds.

Very few styles, including traditional martial arts are 100% of themselves. Most styles borrow ideas and methods from other systems and styles. Whether is a choke, hold, lock or even certain strikes can be seen in many systems, but were borrowed from another source.

But the difference between those TMA's and MMA's is that the TMA's devoted to self defense were always seeking a quick conclusion and developed their methods towards getting them. MMA's create professional athletes that can circle each other for 3 or 4 rounds, jabbing and throwing low kicks and the occasional high roundhouse, until one guy executes a throw or shoots in and tries to make it a ground affair, neither ending the fight.

MMA pits strength against strength, which has NEVER been the goal of combat. You're supposed to attack weakness, not strength. TMA systems have always relied on counter attacking, although there are times when a strong offense needs to be used. But even then it works off surprise, or an explosive, abrupt initiation. This is why so many people have been lost and think that they've reinvented the wheel with MMA. They don't realize that there is a difference between self defense and dueling(MMA).

In self defense, you attack weakness or take advantage of unawareness.

MMA is basically a duel, or mutually agreed upon combat. All your cards are on the table. Your opponent knows you're going to attack. Your opponent knows how you generally fight. You and your opponent both KNOW that the worst that is going to happen is getting knocked unconscious, and therefore don't mind taking unnecessary risks and won't fight as cautiously because you KNOW that your life isn't on the line.

You don't have the luxury of that knowledge beforehand in reality. You don't have the luxury of knowing that you won't get gang stomped if you lay on the ground to work submissions. You can't tap out. You can get stabbed or shot at any point. So you HAVE to fight differently because the combat environment is different.

Combat is about survival against unknown odds.

MMA is about imposing your will against an opponent that has agreed to follow rules so that the damage can only go but so far. No subtleties. No awareness. No weapons, which is as real as it gets.

If anyone thinks that reality fighting is based on mutually agreed combat, then they need to get their money back from whatever gym has been selling them fool's gold. Knowing that the worst that can happen in a fight is something other than death changes everything completely. It becomes a different animal. Its like changing a bull into a cow. They both look similar, but which would you rather play matador with?

oh man, dont start with all this nonsense again.

[Bjjexpertise@be]

MMA pits strength against strength, which has NEVER been the goal of combat. You're supposed to attack weakness, not strength. TMA systems have always relied on counter attacking, although there are times when a strong offense needs to be used. But even then it works off surprise, or an explosive, abrupt initiation. This is why so many people have been lost and think that they've reinvented the wheel with MMA. They don't realize that there is a difference between self defense and dueling(MMA).

In self defense, you attack weakness or take advantage of unawareness.

MMA is basically a duel, or mutually agreed upon combat. All your cards are on the table. Your opponent knows you're going to attack. Your opponent knows how you generally fight. You and your opponent both KNOW that the worst that is going to happen is getting knocked unconscious, and therefore don't mind taking unnecessary risks and won't fight as cautiously because you KNOW that your life isn't on the line.

You don't have the luxury of that knowledge beforehand in reality. You don't have the luxury of knowing that you won't get gang stomped if you lay on the ground to work submissions. You can't tap out. You can get stabbed or shot at any point. So you HAVE to fight differently because the combat environment is different.

Combat is about survival against unknown odds.

MMA is about imposing your will against an opponent that has agreed to follow rules so that the damage can only go but so far. No subtleties. No awareness. No weapons, which is as real as it gets.

If anyone thinks that reality fighting is based on mutually agreed combat, then they need to get their money back from whatever gym has been selling them fool's gold. Knowing that the worst that can happen in a fight is something other than death changes everything completely. It becomes a different animal. Its like changing a bull into a cow. They both look similar, but which would you rather play matador with?

3 years on these boards and it's always been the same sh*t, same argument. -sigh- all these argument have been argued to death. If you are not presenting a new argument please just shut up and don't post.

[Juicefree]

I was under the impression that Pancrase was over 2,500 years old.

[Bjjexpertise@be]

Pancrase dates back to the times of ancient Greece and was actually one of the Olympic sports one could compete in. Pancrase was just as popular as Wrestling and Boxing. This sport only began to die out after the Romans took over and tried to make this sport more "interesting" by introducing gloves with spikes into this sport. These gloves removed much of the technical aspect of the game and soon died out (a lot of famous pankrationists even refused to partake in this new 'bloodsport' because of the supposed lack of skill).

As an interesting fact, probably the three most popular sports were Wrestling, Boxing, and Pancration. A competitor in one event would most likely compete in the others as well. The sport that was regarded to be most dangerous wasn't Pancration, however, but boxing. Just about all the competitors requested for their Pancration matches to be first so they could compete in the boxing event without injuries.

Yeah I wrote an english paper on MMA a year ago .

[Uke]

Originally Posted by Bjjexpertise@be

3 years on these boards and it's always been the same sh*t, same argument. -sigh- all these argument have been argued to death. If you are not presenting a new argument please just shut up and don't post.

Let me get this straight ... Unless I write something new about something old that hasn't changed in years and is being viewed and accepted as everything I wrote above by any serious non-sportive gym, I'm not supposed to write anything and shut up?

I guess writing about how Bruce Lee would do in the UFC for the past 3 years or discussing how other arts might do in NHB like it was fantasy football appeals to you more?

Fear not. I wasn't writing to get a response from you or anyone else. I wrote just in case someone new read what was written and thought there was actually something noble or ancient about what some of you are trying to liken MMA to these days.

Heheh ... If you don't want people to comment, stop being so damn funny by comparing yourselves to gladiators when you guys are more like a Civil War reenactment shooting blanks.

[Juicefree]

Hey, what's wrong with re-enactment ? In Fair England we've been living in the past for 150 years !!

We're forever polising our muskets !

[Shard]

Fear not. I wasn't writing to get a response from you or anyone else. I wrote just in case someone new read what was written and thought there was actually something noble or ancient about what some of you are trying to liken MMA to these days

.
In that case, i'm writing this just in case someone new reads the thread and thinks what you just said was actually real and not pulled out of your ass.

MMA has been around since about 1996-1997. Some NHB veterans created a style comprised of ring techniques to make some of the younger guys more competitive.

True enough. MMA as we know it today has only roughly been around still the mid-90's. However, the concept of MMA has been around at least since the time of the Greeks. Your modern olympics was probably born out of the ancient pankration fights that the greeks held. Pankration is more or less MMA. It focused on striking techniques as well as wrestling for dominance on the ground.
In fact, the idea of a martial artist focusing on a single range of combat is a far more modern concept than MMA.

Kajukenbo and other styles that are eclectic are combined over time after seeking practicality in every component that they include. These arts were created so that weaker opponents could stand a chance and survive an attack against stronger opponents

MMA seeks to do the exact same thing. Practicality in every component included. Why Thai boxing? Because punches and knees are some of the most effective weapons to use a combat situation. And the method by which muay thai trains such techniques are tested and true.
Why does MMA bother with the ground? Because it is dangerous to ignore such a range. Groundwork in MMA is not limited to BJJ. The goal of whatever techniques learnt in MMA is to be able to overcome one's opponent in the fastest time possible.
The techniques in MMA can give the smaller guy an advantage. But there are limits. Weight makes does make a difference whether you like it or not.

While every MMA fighter would love to win as quickly as possible, we often see that they don't and such is the necessity for rounds.

When you set you people of roughly equal skill together, it will almost undoubtly take time for the one who is either more skilled or more cunning to emerge the victor.
Lets take chess as an example. Suppose you put 2 chess grandmasters in a chess match. It can be hours before a victor emerges. But if you put a beginner agaisnt one of these masters, he/she will undoubtly lose very fast.
How long did each of Royce's opponents last in the first UFC? Not very long.
Heck, lets just take that Karate guy from the first UFC, Gerrad. How long did his opponent last? 30 seconds?
How long did Wanderlei sliva last agaisnt Vitor Belfort? 44 seconds?

MMA's create professional athletes that can circle each other for 3 or 4 rounds, jabbing and throwing low kicks and the occasional high roundhouse, until one guy executes a throw or shoots in and tries to make it a ground affair, neither ending the fight.

MMA fighters do seek to end the fight as quickly as possible. But things are easier said than done. I may try to kick my opponent in the head to knock him out. But that doesn't mean he won't defend agaisnt the kick. If i take him to the ground and attempt to submit him, if he knows what he's doing, he will attempt to defend agaisnt that submission. Its not so simple as just FINISHING the fight.

MMA pits strength against strength, which has NEVER been the goal of combat. You're supposed to attack weakness, not strength. TMA systems have always relied on counter attacking, although there are times when a strong offense needs to be used. But even then it works off surprise, or an explosive, abrupt initiation. This is why so many people have been lost and think that they've reinvented the wheel with MMA.

You are talking out of your ass here. MMA has never been about strength vs strength. Strength vs Weakness has been the goal everytime. If the former were true, then royce gracie would have never won he first UFC, hell he would have never proceeded past the first fight.
If i know that my strength is in taking my opponent to the ground and submitting him and my opponent's weakness happens to be his inability to fight on the ground, then obviously i will take him down and submit him. Or vice versa (Chuck Liddell anyone?)

In self defense, you attack weakness or take advantage of unawareness.

So how would mounting a person and pounding his face in not count as "taking advanatge of unawareness" give the opponents unawareness about the ground?

You and your opponent both KNOW that the worst that is going to happen is getting knocked unconscious, and therefore don't mind taking unnecessary risks and won't fight as cautiously because you KNOW that your life isn't on the line.

Hmmm...

MMA's create professional athletes that can circle each other for 3 or 4 rounds, jabbing and throwing low kicks and the occasional high roundhouse, until one guy executes a throw or shoots in and tries to make it a ground affair, neither ending the fight.

So now jabbing and a couple of kicks are dangerous and uncautious actions? I'd hate to see 2 street fighters being "cautious". The very fact that a person is fighting on the street is in it self being the opposite of cautious. By fighting on the street there is only one outcome. You will get hurt. It just boils down to who will get hurt more, you or your opponent?



That being said, MMA is NOT self defense, but it is about as close as it comes to being in an unarmed one on one fight. If you can't even handle yourself in a simple controlled enviroment. What in the blue hell makes you think that anyone will be able to handle themselves out the T3h STr33T? Sure you have groin kicks and weapons and friends, but out there, the other guy probably has those things too.

[WuChi]

Originally Posted by Bjjexpertise@be

2 words: Spell Check.

The reason people quarrel over which martial art is superior is because it is their way of trying to find confirmation that they have picked the right martial art to train in. Also, people have got to stop using the same "it's not the art it's the fighter" bullshit time and time again. True that the fighter's qualities and traits matter but it's his training that teaches him and prepares him for the battle.

what are you on about you clown. Obviously its the training , but its up to the bloody fighter to train and prepare, stop talking trash. Im not saying the journey isnt important, but its the fighter who is more important, no doubt. And you show that you spend more time talking than doing, the reason I dont speel check is because I cant be bothered. And that is becasue anything that is said cant even be understood by people, they will take off on a tangent and mess it up. Im a member of the British Neuro Reaserch formums, and my grammer is just great, probably because the peole im speaking to have sense and respect. Man dont make me laugh.

[WuChi]

That being said, MMA is NOT self defense, but it is about as close as it comes to being in an unarmed one on one fight. If you can't even handle yourself in a simple controlled enviroment. What in the blue hell makes you think that anyone will be able to handle themselves out the T3h STr33T? Sure you have groin kicks and weapons and friends, but out there, the other guy probably has those things too.[/QUOTE]

Ok what is self defence, I can defend myself, Iv done hard ma for 7years, but when I was about 14-5 I didnt give a toss, I could still defend myself though. Its about mental preperation , and heart. I would kill someone before they beat me, that is self defence. Even if I done it with a nail gun.

"Out there".... lol, a bet your "IN-There", in the house shitting yer pants because you aint got the danglies.

[WuChi]

Maybe I`l come back to the forum in another 4years and see if you are any further forward caus at the moment your stagnent, like an old pond. I mean there are some really stupid posts out there.

[WuChi]

Originally Posted by DickHardman

style matters somewhat. thats why mma fighters favor training in certain arts over others.

"In the world there are always braggart who Think themselves clever. They say of a fighter boxing that at one glance they know. They do not realise that while the onece knew it if they look again they wont know it."
Chang.
DIY, is what you want but I dont care if you dont believe me, you couldent comprehend.