army rangers train in jiu jitsu

[DickHardman]

i knew that bjj was nothing new, but i had no idea exactly how identical it is to traditional newaza. i was surprised to watch a video on this forum about a very traditional style of jiu jitsu that was all about newaza only to see that it was like 99% identical to the bjj i train in.

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by DickHardman

i knew that bjj was nothing new, but i had no idea exactly how identical it is to traditional newaza. i was surprised ....

Imagine that! LOL


.....

[darrianation]

I think they should bring back Charles Neilson's stuff or faibarin/sykes WWII combatives!

As lorenzodamarith said their have been many failed attempts at some form of H2H method over the years. I remember LINE, Marine boxing, S.C.A.R.S. and of course just about every Asian art out there including TKD being the official art of SF (as claimed in hundreds of advertisments).

To be honest I was disappointed to learn the Army chose BJJ as their model not that I think there is anything wrong with BJJ it just seams that it is too ground oriented and gaining position in order to secure submission i.e. chokes and joint locks is far to time consuming on the battlefield where things are moving a million miles a second.

Basically in a H2H situation it really comes down to which teammates get there first his or yours. Although some of the BJJ stuff has some merit in prisoner control tactics I suppose. The Marines have the MCMAP which looks suspiciously like Muay Thai but I really don’t know the background story there.

That said, some of the stuff the Teams are doing these days aren’t bad such as Deter’s stuff (newer not his old stuff) with the east coast teams. The West coasters are more Piece Meal but have some pretty good prisoner control stuff. Anyway, the way the Teams have traditionally done it is developed their stuff independently and internally. Even then most of the Seals I know cross train in MMA or BJJ.

The only time I’ve used H2H in the military was in prisoner control situations and entry work. Besides a good thrust kick (done more like a stiff arm with the leg) and a chin-jab, I think having the capability to use your rifle or handgun as a improvised weapon goes a long ways. I once put the muzzle of my M16 through a badguy's teeth.

[lorenzodamarith]

Originally Posted by darrianation

I think they should bring back Charles Neilson's stuff or faibarin/sykes WWII combatives!

As lorenzodamarith said their have been many failed attempts at some form of H2H method over the years. I remember LINE, Marine boxing, S.C.A.R.S. and of course just about every Asian art out there including TKD being the official art of SF (as claimed in hundreds of advertisments).

To be honest I was disappointed to learn the Army chose BJJ as their model not that I think there is anything wrong with BJJ it just seams that it is too ground oriented and gaining position in order to secure submission i.e. chokes and joint locks is far to time consuming on the battlefield where things are moving a million miles a second.

Basically in a H2H situation it really comes down to which teammates get there first his or yours. Although some of the BJJ stuff has some merit in prisoner control tactics I suppose. The Marines have the MCMAP which looks suspiciously like Muay Thai but I really don’t know the background story there.

That said, some of the stuff the Teams are doing these days aren’t bad such as Deter’s stuff (newer not his old stuff) with the east coast teams. The West coasters are more Piece Meal but have some pretty good prisoner control stuff. Anyway, the way the Teams have traditionally done it is developed their stuff independently and internally. Even then most of the Seals I know cross train in MMA or BJJ.

The only time I’ve used H2H in the military was in prisoner control situations and entry work. Besides a good thrust kick (done more like a stiff arm with the leg) and a chin-jab, I think having the capability to use your rifle or handgun as a improvised weapon goes a long ways. I once put the muzzle of my M16 through a badguy's teeth.

hello,

agreed. nothing whatsoever wrong with teammembers learning this stuff on thier own (as many do when they have time). but if the military is going to impose a doctrine, it should be a bet more relavent to the job.

it is suprising that the teams don't adopt a lot of the stuff developed by the mp's (1st force recon has). they have a great deal of experience in handling rowdies and prisoners and many of the mp battalions have done a lot of good work develping this sort of thing. it would be quite useful to the rest of the military at large.

thanks.

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by darrianation

.... Even then most of the Seals I know cross train in MMA or BJJ.

The only time I’ve used H2H in the military was in prisoner control situations and entry work. Besides a good thrust kick (done more like a stiff arm with the leg) and a chin-jab, I think having the capability to use your rifle or handgun as a improvised weapon goes a long ways. I once put the muzzle of my M16 through a badguy's teeth.

That's good stuff. I have said before that a gun is a good "stick" and that's what I'm talking about. For us civilians it's ADW no matter if you shoot them or hit them with your gun but personally I'd rather bash somebody over the head than shoot them (if I have a choice) Not to be mistaken for premeditation or intent mind you... Just saying, you know. If I could justify the deadly force thing I'd still rather not kill him if there were some other reasonable means at hand to change his mindset.

Nothing fancy, just a good old fashoned pistol whiping...

(Or a few teeth) simple is best.

[lorenzodamarith]

Originally Posted by Tant01

Nothing fancy, just a good old fashoned pistol whiping...

hello,

now THAT is some "civilized discussion"!!!!

hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!

thanks.

[Shoot]

I don't know if you guys realized this but we're in a war right now. The Army has an interest in recruiting and these "confidence building" exercises, like learning BJJ in 13 easy steps is a great appeal to 18 year old males who like things like the UFC. Ever watch who is advertising in the MMA world? The Army, that's who. Please don't misunderstand, I'm not disrespecting here, I'm glad that some ground fighting is being taught to the military now, but I do suspect that this is partly a marketing thing for recruitment.

I think this clip is out of context for the most part. This is a "combat principles" exercise I think. For one most H2H experts of old never would recommend striking with a closed fist (too much of a hand break risk) and of course never advocated taking it to the mat (the ground).

Yes, it's good to know how to get off the ground quickly, but learning how to roll on the ground and intentionally staying there is about as valuable as learning, well, how to knife fight, the very example this Ranger gave as being kind of silly.

EDIT: someone above said something about the military's various programs that came after Fairbairn inspired H2H. That is an excellant point: after WWII the U.S. Military has shown a poor track record in coming up with real effective H2H. Fairbarin, Sykes, Applegate., Nelson--these people knew about killing with their hands and how to train others. Their systems were simple and effective. Add some "get off the ground" skills and you have a great H2H system.

[lorenzodamarith]

hello,

yep. marketing. lots of it too. recruiting is big business

thanks.

[sapatiero]

These are all good points, but the stuff in the Gracie Combatives programme doesn't have any moves that could risk injuries on the ground like Carlinhos's sportive stuff.

The points based jiu jitsu that most clubs do now is only good for tournaments. Pulling guard, dropping to the knees for a double leg... These are moves that are gonna get you hurt on the street or in H2H. Do you really think the US army thinks flying armbars & omoplatas are gonna be useful for them? No.

Of course it's mainly 'last resort' stuff, but if it wasn't practical, the US army wouldn't have adopted it, and there wouldn't be pages of quotes from guys like marines, seals, and special forces guys saying how useful they found it, surely?

[DickHardman]

Originally Posted by sapatiero

The points based jiu jitsu that most clubs do now is only good for tournaments. Pulling guard, dropping to the knees for a double leg... These are moves that are gonna get you hurt on the street or in H2H. ?

thats highly debatable. if you have practiced these techniques over and over again and are proficient with them, they could probobly help you win in a real fight especially since the average joe isnt usually trained.

all those "ww2 combatives" type systems have you performing all kinds od ridiculous moves on an a partner that just stands there, not even moving after receiving all kinds of strikes lol. ive seen some of that material, it was weak inmmop. facing real opponents trying their hardest to beat you is better inmop, even if its sport oriented.

these sport arts require you to think fast, take care of yourself, and learn from mistakes. its way more beneficial than standing there and pretending to rip someones heart out or claw at their eyes like ashida kim does.

[DJL2]

Well, let me speak from the perspective of some who is currently serving in the Army. Modern Army Combatives, which includes more than just BJJ, is a worthwhile instructional endevour in my opinion, here's why:

Confidence - this is a key part to being able to maintain yourself psychologically and necessary for peak performance. That's something of a big picture thing.

As to the technique:

Composure - getting punched, kicked, choked out and joint locked and employing your own counter techniques in training is, as posited by many, a key to maintaining composure and thinking clearly when the chips are down. If the skill transfers over to other aspects of the Soldiers performance, you get "big picture" benefits too.

Use of dominant body position to allow the use weapons at contact range is useful. Being able to quickly finish someone quickly, or render them temporarily NMC (and subsequently finish them), through a choke or joint technique is a boon for when that butt stroke to the head doesn't knock them out. Those are just a couple things purely from the BJJ side that are good tools.

To address some other comments:
The instructor for MAC over here is a great guy and works hard to coordinate additional opportunity for soldiers. He does this on his own time for the most part. He has established a few ties in the martial arts community here and we've had the opportunity to see BJJ practiced and taught by some very skilled folks (i.e. world class competitors). As I said earlier, MAC is not pure BJJ and certainly not sport BJJ. If you have access to a MAC instructor willing to train people on his own time from almost anywhere, as ours does, I encourage you to involve yourself and see for yourself. Failing that, try and find yourself the FM on-line and read through it to get a sense for what it entails. Martial arts is not a one size fits all, this art is THE art proposition in my eyes. MAC tries to combine techniques into something effective and easily trainable, not be THE answer.

[sapatiero]

Originally Posted by DickHardman

thats highly debatable. if you have practiced these techniques over and over again and are proficient with them, they could probobly help you win in a real fight especially since the average joe isnt usually trained.

True - it's debatable. But here's a couple of examples to prove my point. Renzo recently got into a streetfight, and did the double leg where you drop... and busted his knee. A friend of mine got into a fight & pulled guard, then got slammed on his head. I've taught the gracie combative programme, and it includes double legs without hitting the knee, and a variation of pulling guard which won't get you slammed (not that I'd want to be using guard in that scenario anyway).

I'm not against the sportive stuff - I lived & trained full time in Barra for 4 months, it's just that I think most people think that the tournament stuff is all there is.

Just my thoughts, guys...

[lorenzodamarith]

hello,

well, not going to debate 'who's is better'. the bottom line is this. the types of combatives taught and how they are taught are insufficient to the needs of the us military.

doctrine... also known as "the way of things" is what it is for a reason. it is oriented toward the mission.

the mission of the army. the mission of a corps. the mission of a division, a brigade, a regiment, a battalion a company.

to formulate a docrine (including any kind of combatives) that will be useful, one must think about what the military will be doing.

and then train THAT.

if they will handle prisoners... train prisoner handling.
if they will eliminate sentries... train sentry elimination.
if they will be carrying weapons and gear... train with weapons and gear.

does this make sense. confidence is important... agreed. but the soldiers confidence is being developed with our tax dollars. perhaps our tax dollars should go toward making more proficient soldiers. yes, spend our tax dollars teaching them to fight... but teach them how better to do so in the context of the job they perform.

otherwise we end up paying for confident soldiers that are inept.

thanks.

[lorenzodamarith]

hello,

also, we won't have to listen to sgt blowhard talk about how he knows so much and we know so little. maybe if these guys were trained for thier jobs, and had so much confidence, they might spend less time thinking about how the rest of the world has it all wrong.

maybe sgt blowhard would just be better at his job.

thanks.

[DickHardman]

army rangers are special forces right? they need to know more hand to hand combat skills than regular soldiers do dont they?