The Ultimate in Martial Arts

Americana · 03-12-2001, 02:23 PM

I've had training partners complain that I snap the subs on too hard and fast in training (there have been no serious injuries to my knowledge). My problem is that in order to really "submit" people with many techniques, it has to be done quickly. Otherwise, your opponent just wiggles out of it.

Take ankle locks. If you slowly and methodically apply a standard ankle lock/heel hook, there aren't very many people who don't know the counter. You can also just power out of it. So many times when I go slow, opponents will "cheat" me out of a sub and just wriggle out.

Of course the problem is no one wants to get injured (including me) by overagressive submissions. How do you guys work this out?

Spineflow · 03-12-2001, 03:47 PM

If they had the chance to crank one on you I'm sure they would

MadMax · 03-12-2001, 03:48 PM

I believe that safety is the most important issue on the mat. If people get hurt then it effects all of us as students, resulting in less people to roll with. When I get an armbar, and due to my caution, my opponent escapes, I believe the victory was getting there. Also most blackbelts will submit you in slow motion, having the skills to control you and stop your escapes and counters. Most advanced students due not care if you like to slap them on, but newbies without a lot of mat time, may be at risk to injury. Use your judgement and let your opponent know you like to turn it up.

PS: When I first started training there was a guy who really liked to slap em on, with in a few months nobody would spar with him. He was a great guy but for the beginners it just was not worth it.

03-12-2001, 03:54 PM

Until you hear a 'snapping' sound, and your partner screams in agony.

That is the only way you will know you are doing it right.

03-12-2001, 03:58 PM

'Crunching' sounds are also good. It depends on the body-part.

SweepEm · 03-12-2001, 10:31 PM

Common sense and Respect.

This is what sparring and training comes down to.
I've trained with all types of dudes. Now if you are training with guys that are on the same or below your level, you may have to "snap" that quick submission on them, but try it on a much more experienced opponent, no matter how fast you do it, they will be able to counter it since they are at a level above you.
When I spar, I know when I can get someone and when I almost did and when I missed it.
There is no reason to try hard to get a submission except to feed your ego, when training with guys that you are partners with.

If you have guys complain about your training, it should be you that changes your attitude and the way you train. Now if you think that these guys are wimps, then you shouldn't train with them. Or just go easy on them. If you play King of the Hill in your mind and you have to tap everyone that you spar, you'll soon be like the guy that never washes his stinky Gi, no one will want to train with you.
I go with guys that I know are not as good or experienced as I am, and I will play a game and let them take my back or get into a situation where there might be some risk that they may nail me, but that is what I train for, to get in these situations and see if I can counter their moves.

I've had too many imbeciles try and try to submit me at times, and I just look at them and tell them it ain't going to work. Now this is tunnel vision, looking for one move and trying to nail it because of a limited amount of BJJ knowledge.
And in other cases, I tap quickly when I know that they got me.
As the years pass, I've gotten too many injuries when tapping a little too late and it's not worth it, to sit at home or on the side of the mat, just watching, instead of training.

I believe that you should respect all of your team mates and safety is the number one concern.

Americana · 03-13-2001, 02:35 AM

Some good sense in the replies. Thanks.

Karlinhos · 03-13-2001, 09:15 AM

americana... instead of slapping the move quickly on your opponents, why don't you work on securing the hold, making sure it's tight and inescapable. then you can cruise into the crank.

if you've ever rolled with a much higher belt than yourself, you'll notice that no matter how "slow" they seem to be going, you can't escape when they catch you. they lock the sub in DEEP and TIGHT.

and even if your opponent escapes, flow/transition into a diffferent sub. for every sub, there are multiple other subs that you can flow into.

you having to slap subs on to be "successful" indicates to me that you're a newbie, to a certain degree.

personally, i don't roll with guys that feel the need to slap on the subs. too much danger involved.

have a nice day.

Lithp · 03-13-2001, 10:02 AM

Just my opinion, but if you crank till you hear a crunch, then you've just lost a training partner. You're just shooting yourself in the foot because eventually there will be nobody left.

Hawk · 03-13-2001, 05:19 PM

When training I don't feel a need to tap anyone. Like Sweep, I know if I got it or not. I've had beginners do crazy things to escape that would have got them hurt if I hadn't let go. It takes a very short time to know if you're in for a relaxed roll or someone going full tilt. If a guy is really going hard I make sure I defend with the idea that this guy may not have a lot of control.
Hawk

SweepEm · 03-13-2001, 06:12 PM

Hey Hawk, we old dudes do think alike.

I wonder, what it would have been like to train BJJ and be young? HA!

Pass the Geritol, Advil, some Gingko and the Ben Gay

03-13-2001, 06:30 PM

I hope it was obvious that I was kidding.

If not, I need to take some remedial writing classes...

My submission "philosophy" would get me crippled in a hurry.

Mr. Miyagi · 03-13-2001, 07:30 PM

I agree with Karlinhos about being very tight with the technique so that it can be done slowly without the opponent escaping. Many schools don't allow heelhooks even in training. You should ideally be able to hold a guy in the armbar, triangle, kneebar, kimura, toehold, or anklelock for several seconds without him escaping if you do it right. Only neck cranks are easily escapable and have to be slapped on hard to make the guy tap rather than escape. I think neck cranks are a bit dangerous like heelhooks and should be banned.

03-13-2001, 09:15 AM	#8 (permalink)
Karlinhos Advanced Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 650 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	americana... instead of slapping the move quickly on your opponents, why don't you work on securing the hold, making sure it's tight and inescapable. then you can cruise into the crank. if you've ever rolled with a much higher belt than yourself, you'll notice that no matter how "slow" they seem to be going, you can't escape when they catch you. they lock the sub in DEEP and TIGHT. and even if your opponent escapes, flow/transition into a diffferent sub. for every sub, there are multiple other subs that you can flow into. you having to slap subs on to be "successful" indicates to me that you're a newbie, to a certain degree. personally, i don't roll with guys that feel the need to slap on the subs. too much danger involved. have a nice day. __________________ www.grappletv.com - Accept the ORIGINATORS, not the DUPLICATORS...!!!

03-13-2001, 05:19 PM	#10 (permalink)
Hawk Master Join Date: Jul 2000 Posts: 2,081 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	When training I don't feel a need to tap anyone. Like Sweep, I know if I got it or not. I've had beginners do crazy things to escape that would have got them hurt if I hadn't let go. It takes a very short time to know if you're in for a relaxed roll or someone going full tilt. If a guy is really going hard I make sure I defend with the idea that this guy may not have a lot of control. Hawk __________________ You cannot run away from a weakness; Sometimes you must fight it out or perish; And if that be so; Why not now and where you stand.

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03-12-2001, 02:23 PM	#1 (permalink)
Americana Novice Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Honolulu, Hawaii Posts: 272 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	I've had training partners complain that I snap the subs on too hard and fast in training (there have been no serious injuries to my knowledge). My problem is that in order to really "submit" people with many techniques, it has to be done quickly. Otherwise, your opponent just wiggles out of it. Take ankle locks. If you slowly and methodically apply a standard ankle lock/heel hook, there aren't very many people who don't know the counter. You can also just power out of it. So many times when I go slow, opponents will "cheat" me out of a sub and just wriggle out. Of course the problem is no one wants to get injured (including me) by overagressive submissions. How do you guys work this out?

03-12-2001, 03:47 PM	#2 (permalink)
Spineflow Novice Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: AZ Posts: 19 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	If they had the chance to crank one on you I'm sure they would

03-12-2001, 03:48 PM	#3 (permalink)
MadMax Novice Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 32 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	I believe that safety is the most important issue on the mat. If people get hurt then it effects all of us as students, resulting in less people to roll with. When I get an armbar, and due to my caution, my opponent escapes, I believe the victory was getting there. Also most blackbelts will submit you in slow motion, having the skills to control you and stop your escapes and counters. Most advanced students due not care if you like to slap them on, but newbies without a lot of mat time, may be at risk to injury. Use your judgement and let your opponent know you like to turn it up. PS: When I first started training there was a guy who really liked to slap em on, with in a few months nobody would spar with him. He was a great guy but for the beginners it just was not worth it.

03-12-2001, 03:54 PM	#4 (permalink)
Ronin Guest Posts: n/a	Until you hear a 'snapping' sound, and your partner screams in agony. That is the only way you will know you are doing it right.

03-12-2001, 03:58 PM	#5 (permalink)
Ronin Guest Posts: n/a	'Crunching' sounds are also good. It depends on the body-part.

03-12-2001, 10:31 PM	#6 (permalink)
SweepEm Master Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 2,845 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Common sense and Respect. This is what sparring and training comes down to. I've trained with all types of dudes. Now if you are training with guys that are on the same or below your level, you may have to "snap" that quick submission on them, but try it on a much more experienced opponent, no matter how fast you do it, they will be able to counter it since they are at a level above you. When I spar, I know when I can get someone and when I almost did and when I missed it. There is no reason to try hard to get a submission except to feed your ego, when training with guys that you are partners with. If you have guys complain about your training, it should be you that changes your attitude and the way you train. Now if you think that these guys are wimps, then you shouldn't train with them. Or just go easy on them. If you play King of the Hill in your mind and you have to tap everyone that you spar, you'll soon be like the guy that never washes his stinky Gi, no one will want to train with you. I go with guys that I know are not as good or experienced as I am, and I will play a game and let them take my back or get into a situation where there might be some risk that they may nail me, but that is what I train for, to get in these situations and see if I can counter their moves. I've had too many imbeciles try and try to submit me at times, and I just look at them and tell them it ain't going to work. Now this is tunnel vision, looking for one move and trying to nail it because of a limited amount of BJJ knowledge. And in other cases, I tap quickly when I know that they got me. As the years pass, I've gotten too many injuries when tapping a little too late and it's not worth it, to sit at home or on the side of the mat, just watching, instead of training. I believe that you should respect all of your team mates and safety is the number one concern.

03-13-2001, 02:35 AM	#7 (permalink)
Americana Novice Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Honolulu, Hawaii Posts: 272 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Some good sense in the replies. Thanks.

03-13-2001, 10:02 AM	#9 (permalink)
Lithp Novice Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 82 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Just my opinion, but if you crank till you hear a crunch, then you've just lost a training partner. You're just shooting yourself in the foot because eventually there will be nobody left.

03-13-2001, 06:12 PM	#11 (permalink)
SweepEm Master Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 2,845 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hey Hawk, we old dudes do think alike. I wonder, what it would have been like to train BJJ and be young? HA! Pass the Geritol, Advil, some Gingko and the Ben Gay

03-13-2001, 06:30 PM	#12 (permalink)
Ronin Guest Posts: n/a	I hope it was obvious that I was kidding. If not, I need to take some remedial writing classes... My submission "philosophy" would get me crippled in a hurry.

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03-13-2001, 07:30 PM	#13 (permalink)
Mr. Miyagi Registered User Join Date: Oct 2000 Posts: 758 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	I agree with Karlinhos about being very tight with the technique so that it can be done slowly without the opponent escaping. Many schools don't allow heelhooks even in training. You should ideally be able to hold a guy in the armbar, triangle, kneebar, kimura, toehold, or anklelock for several seconds without him escaping if you do it right. Only neck cranks are easily escapable and have to be slapped on hard to make the guy tap rather than escape. I think neck cranks are a bit dangerous like heelhooks and should be banned.