vote: Iceman or Rampage?

[J-Luck]

Originally Posted by Uke

I can appreciate you sticking to your guns, but I don't think you know what great jujitsu is. What the Gracies teach isn't great jujitsu. Its submission wrestling. Newaza may be a part of jujitsu, but its a sportive aspect that only came about once weapons were banned. True jujitsu is more than just laying on the ground and learning submissions. By that reasoning, we might as well say that Mark Kerr was excellent at jujitsu, but he isn't. He's a wrestler who learned some submissions.

Unfortunately it seems your logic is swayed by men who you see on television. What they say is obviously gospel to you. I however have been fortunate enough to learn from men who are not only legends in the world of jujitsu and combatives, but aren't limited to only one aspect of jujitsu, and even that aspect of (MMA)jujitsu is limited to sporting events. So when you give someone a 9 or 10 for jujitsu, they better be a master at it and not just a guy who has picked up a few submissions and learned how to work from positions like guard, mount, and side mount.



That's not accurate either. Randy Couture would easily get outboxed by an Olympic hopeful. I also believe that he isn't at the level of a Golden Gloves champion, which is basically a skilled child. Being a club fighter could mean that you are below both skill wise. Anyone can be a pro fighter, J-Luck. You don't even have to really be fairly skilled. As far as that being really good for an MMA guy, that's wrong too. Why would someone limit themselves when they could rise to a level where their boxing skills could determine a match? If a MMA guy would stick to it and master those handskills he could be a force to be reckoned with WITHOUT having to roll around on the floor. Just like Crocop, but his left high kick telegraphs much more.



No argument there.




Well to tell you the truth, you not doing anything much different than other people. I like the idea, but when you do that, you're not learning how to transition between ranges which IMO is much more important than being technically sound. Not every great fighter is a technician, and by the standards you've set for yourself that's what you're aiming to become. If you were to spar with the best in 3 years at the thai gym , you'd get beaten up because he's focused on his thai growth while you've simply dabbled. The same would happen at the boxing gym, jujitsu school and wrestling gym. You might have a broader knowledge than the other fighters, but their tools would be much sharper than yours.

The minute you tried to box the best student, it would be a bad night for J-Luck. The minute you tried to wrestle the best student you'd be thrown.

You're basically doing what MMA attempts to do but with bigger names. No matter how talented you are, you won't reap the full benefits from any of the schools you attend because your mind can only process but so much.

MMA is a bit smarter than that. They have decided what it is that they wish to accomplish, and they have devised a curriculum to do it. They don't wish to be the best fighters out there. They wish to be able to deal with any range adequately enough to find a way to win, but in a sportive manner. They just wish to be competent enough to compete with whoever is in the ring with them. But that's why they are very limited and are often criticized.

I know what you're trying to do and logically it makes sense, but realistically all you've done make up a better resume of teachers. Unless you study one discipline for years to get all that you can get out of it before moving on to another all your doing is studying MA buffet style. And even after mastering one style, you must start from the beginning in whatever you chose to do next. And so forth. Then and only then are you qualified to create a system that's been stripped down and tailor made to accomplish whatever goal you have in mind.

This is the reason that MMA gets trashed a lot in the media. Not one fighter in the events has paid his dues to be able to start mixing and matching styles and ranges. Most haven't even mastered just one style, let alone several to be qualified to say what works and what doesn't. Proof of that is that when they enter other events that showcase other styles and ranges that they have supposedly mastered, they lose in embarrassing fashion. The only event that MMA fighters show promise in is the Abu Dhabi, which reinforces the point that MMA has become nothing more than submission wrestling with some sloppy punches and kicks.

If you go by MMA, nothing works but thaiboxing/kickboxing, brawling and BJJ. And hopefully we all know that isn't true.

Ok, lol. You're an arrogant bastard, and it's funny. You feel your experiences and beliefs are so far superior to others that open mindedness is thrown out the window. I have to tell you, you're truly not as intelligent as you feel you are. Maybe in the high average range of I-Q, the rest is fallatiously fabricated in some corner of your mind. Now, to the points.

A. No, my logic is dictated by a high level of intelligence, combined with a high level of understanding as far as reasoning and deeper thought proccesses are concerned. Your wit is dry, and is fallacious in nature. You need to be superior to someone to look down on them with such arrogance. When you get there, I'll let ya know.

What they say is not gospel to me. I merely stated that their opinion was far superior to yours. I hold to this statement. I didn't say there weren't those out there who weren't more knowledgeable, you just don't fit into this category. Your dry wit, again, gives away your undeserved arrogance. I would consider BJ Penn a legend, also Jacare, while I might not consider the people you worked with anything special at all(of course you haven't stated who they are, but I'm merely stating the possibility).

While you are correct that it came about with the abolishment of weapons in Japan, it is not true that jiu-jitsu lost its deadly aspects, in fact, tournaments frequently ended in death, even while Judo was being developed by Kano.

I do not consider classical jiu-jitsu(traditional jiu-jitsu) to be relevant to this conversation. We are on the MMA forum, discussing MMA, no? And if you take offense to me using the term "jiu-jitsu", then you'll do yourself well to go to another forum, such as combatives. The term "jiu-jitsu" here implies brazilian jiu-jitsu.

Randy is an 8-9 jiu-jitsu practioner. I said it once, now I'm re-stating it.


B. Yea, it is accurate. He is at a low/decent level as far as boxing.

Golden gloves is far more than a skilled child, maybe you should box, and learn that of what you speak?

Ummm, while anyone could be a pro, I wasn't talking about anyone. I was talking about good club level pros. Not anyone. Intelligence would dicate that you understand the context of a conversation before formulating a repsponse.

He has consistently gotten better boxing skills in his career, and therefore held true to your idea that good handskills shouldn't stopped being learned.

Haha, you silly combatives guys. "roll around on the floor". I won't dignify that with any more of a response.

C. There shouldn't be an argument with anything I've said so far... but at least you've been able to recognise ONE OF MY POINTS, without bitchin lol.

D. I can compete with top level people for my experience level. For example, people who have wrestled for 3-4 years, I can compete with. From Iowa, to New York, I have found this to be true. No doubt, I'm not beating 10 year wrestlers, but for my yearly experience, I'm in a top percentile... maybe top 30% for my age and experience. This applies to everything else I train in. I study hard in and outa the gym(with maddd dedication), combined with some(not anything spectacular) athletic skills, and *poof* all of a sudden with my peers of the same experience level(I'm comparing myself to pure stylists) I'm in a reasonably high level of skill and competitive ability. Guess that throws your definitive statments -----"(If you were to spar with the best in 3 years at the thai gym , you'd get beaten up because he's focused on his thai growth while you've simply dabbled. The same would happen at the boxing gym, jujitsu school and wrestling gym. You might have a broader knowledge than the other fighters, but their tools would be much sharper than yours."---- out the fuckin window.

I also train at a good MMA school, so no, indeed I am learning transition.

"The minute you tried to box the best student, it would be a bad night for J-Luck. The minute you tried to wrestle the best student you'd be thrown." Wrong again. Like I said, I can't box with someone whos' been doing it for 10 years. NO ARGUMENT. But for my experience, I've been able to get in the ring and go rounds with people in over 6 different gyms in New England and 4 in the South, Mid West, and the West. And compete with them competitively(within my experience level). The same applies to wrestling, though I've never wrestled someone from the West or or South West... Only people from the South, Mid West, North East.

The above portion of response "D" covers your other b.s. points, such as:

"I know what you're trying to do and logically it makes sense, but realistically all you've done make up a better resume of teachers. Unless you study one discipline for years to get all that you can get out of it before moving on to another all your doing is studying MA buffet style. And even after mastering one style, you must start from the beginning in whatever you chose to do next. And so forth. Then and only then are you qualified to create a system that's been stripped down and tailor made to accomplish whatever goal you have in mind."

No, it does not reinforce that it has become Abu Dhabi with sloppy punches. YOU MADE THAT STATEMENT. That doesn't in any way qualify the statement.

Ummm, thaiboxing, kickboxing, boxing, brazilian jiu-jitsu, submission wrestling, Judo, karate, wrestling(all three major forms) and many, many more styles.
They are more than qualify(individually, or in any various combinations) to end a street fight.

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by Hardball

Saturday Chuck got caught by his own strategy. Chuck uses "Attack By Drawing". Yet he fell for it when Rampage opened his guard and invited Chuck in. Classic attack by drawing.

Chuck got caught by a right hand when he was close enough to hit.



The better fighter (that day) won. It seemed clear who was dominating the so called "fight"

[Tant01]

Okay, I'm still a few days behind, sorry all...

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

Originally Posted by Tant01

Chuck got caught by a right hand when he was close enough to hit.



The better fighter (that day) won. It seemed clear who was dominating the so called "fight"

Just what the hell does that have to do w/ this thread?!?!?!

.............


........


...




....oh right, rampage and chuck.

[Uke]

Originally Posted by J-Luck

Ok, lol. You're an arrogant bastard, and it's funny. You feel your experiences and beliefs are so far superior to others that open mindedness is thrown out the window. I have to tell you, you're truly not as intelligent as you feel you are. Maybe in the high average range of I-Q, the rest is fallatiously fabricated in some corner of your mind. Now, to the points.

Its amazing that you feel that you are qualified to judge things. You're basically trying to be eloquently rude without any substance to it. And for no apparent reason. I thought we were having a decent conversation, but as always you fall back into this same nonsense as a substitute for real knowledge.

Originally Posted by J-Luck

A. No, my logic is dictated by a high level of intelligence, combined with a high level of understanding as far as reasoning and deeper thought proccesses are concerned. Your wit is dry, and is fallacious in nature. You need to be superior to someone to look down on them with such arrogance. When you get there, I'll let ya know.

Honestly, don't kid yourself. You've proven how stupid you are here time and time again by simply overreacting to posts that you've misread. Just a page ago you went on a tirade and then later admitted that it was all due to your poor reading comprehension. If after reading my post you felt that I need to feel superior then its a case of you needing to brush up on your "Hooked on Phonics" program.

Originally Posted by J-Luck

What they say is not gospel to me. I merely stated that their opinion was far superior to yours. I hold to this statement. I didn't say there weren't those out there who weren't more knowledgeable, you just don't fit into this category. Your dry wit, again, gives away your undeserved arrogance. I would consider BJ Penn a legend, also Jacare, while I might not consider the people you worked with anything special at all(of course you haven't stated who they are, but I'm merely stating the possibility).

Who cares what you consider? You're a 19 year old who sees himself as an authority in MA after studying less than 4 years, and has written that wrestling is the most formidable combat method. And I have mentioned the men I've worked with. You probably just misread the post as usual.

Originally Posted by J-Luck

While you are correct that it came about with the abolishment of weapons in Japan, it is not true that jiu-jitsu lost its deadly aspects, in fact, tournaments frequently ended in death, even while Judo was being developed by Kano.

At what point did I say that jujitsu lost its deadly aspects? This is another case being made for you to leave MA forums alone until you can master reading ability. Randori was Kano's attempt at giving students an environment where they didn't have to fear receiving debilitating injuries that frequently occurred in jujitsu practice.

Originally Posted by J-Luck

I do not consider classical jiu-jitsu(traditional jiu-jitsu) to be relevant to this conversation. We are on the MMA forum, discussing MMA, no? And if you take offense to me using the term "jiu-jitsu", then you'll do yourself well to go to another forum, such as combatives. The term "jiu-jitsu" here implies brazilian jiu-jitsu.

I haven't taken offense to anything, nor have I tried to be offensive in my last post which is why your rude stance makes no sense. This isn't the first time you've been a complete ass, and I still have the PM where you apologized for it the last time. Didn't matter because I knew you'd go back to being the pretentious little prick that you are. And lo and behold here we are.

As far as jujitsu goes on this forum, it means what it means. Even the Gracies claim to teach the full spectrum of jujitsu. When they give demos, you see them using throws and standup techniques, but those standup techniques are woefully absent once its time for them to apply it to a resisting opponent. No one but you, not even the Gracies who popularized BJJ, are under the illusion that mastering one aspect of an art makes you a jujitsu master.

Originally Posted by J-Luck

Randy is an 8-9 jiu-jitsu practioner. I said it once, now I'm re-stating it.

Sure he is, under the standards that you're learning.

Originally Posted by J-Luck

B. Yea, it is accurate. He is at a low/decent level as far as boxing.

I believe I told you that.

Originally Posted by J-Luck

Golden gloves is far more than a skilled child, maybe you should box, and learn that of what you speak?

Is it really? I know many children who are Golden Glove Champions. I go to a gym where they are groomed. Yet, here you go with your cross-training know-nothing ass talking about things that you believe but don't know.

Originally Posted by J-Luck

Ummm, while anyone could be a pro, I wasn't talking about anyone. I was talking about good club level pros. Not anyone. Intelligence would dicate that you understand the context of a conversation before formulating a repsponse.

Experience dictates that you double talk all the time. So I make my points as I see them. Just like when you got embarrassed when you went on and on about MMA being an official fighting system of the military, and then when SamuraiGuy pointed out that their skills were really terrible, you then and only then admitted that they don't use it because the reality of warfare today is munitions, which I had been saying all along. So save your speech about intelligence and context.

Originally Posted by J-Luck

He has consistently gotten better boxing skills in his career, and therefore held true to your idea that good handskills shouldn't stopped being learned.

I haven't disputed the fact that his boxing skills have gotten better. They've gone from shitty to subpar. When compared to other combat athletes who use handskills(boxing/K-1), he and his ilk are on the lowest rung of the ladder.

Originally Posted by J-Luck

Haha, you silly combatives guys. "roll around on the floor". I won't dignify that with any more of a response.

You just can't respond period. You've tried before and failed miserably ... substituting insults where facts and examples should be, even when no one is being insulting towards you.

Originally Posted by J-Luck

C. There shouldn't be an argument with anything I've said so far... but at least you've been able to recognise ONE OF MY POINTS, without bitchin lol.

I recognize all of your points. I just don't agree with most of them because they aren't solid, just your opinions passed off without good reason behind them.

Originally Posted by J-Luck

D. I can compete with top level people for my experience level. For example, people who have wrestled for 3-4 years, I can compete with. From Iowa, to New York, I have found this to be true. No doubt, I'm not beating 10 year wrestlers, but for my yearly experience, I'm in a top percentile... maybe top 30% for my age and experience. This applies to everything else I train in. I study hard in and outa the gym(with maddd dedication), combined with some(not anything spectacular) athletic skills, and *poof* all of a sudden with my peers of the same experience level(I'm comparing myself to pure stylists) I'm in a reasonably high level of skill and competitive ability. Guess that throws your definitive statments -----"(If you were to spar with the best in 3 years at the thai gym , you'd get beaten up because he's focused on his thai growth while you've simply dabbled. The same would happen at the boxing gym, jujitsu school and wrestling gym. You might have a broader knowledge than the other fighters, but their tools would be much sharper than yours."---- out the fuckin window.

Actually, it doesn't. I don't know who you compare yourself to. I don't know the quality of these practitioner's training. You might be gifted, but if you were to face the best in the gym like I specifically said, you'd get your ass beat. Notice I said the best? You must have missed or misread that. I guess all your high IQ points were put into coming up with the "out the fuckin window" line. But when you get some time try to realize that my statements were made in terms of the best. And you have the nerve to whine about context?

Originally Posted by J-Luck

I also train at a good MMA school, so no, indeed I am learning transition.

If you're training at an MMA school you are learning little if any transition. I doubt you even know what I mean by transitioning between ranges as your understanding of basic MA terms and concepts is suspect, but rest assured that you aren't transitioning between ranges if you haven't even gotten solid skills due to buffet style training.

Originally Posted by J-Luck

"The minute you tried to box the best student, it would be a bad night for J-Luck. The minute you tried to wrestle the best student you'd be thrown." Wrong again. Like I said, I can't box with someone whos' been doing it for 10 years. NO ARGUMENT. But for my experience, I've been able to get in the ring and go rounds with people in over 6 different gyms in New England and 4 in the South, Mid West, and the West. And compete with them competitively(within my experience level). The same applies to wrestling, though I've never wrestled someone from the West or or South West... Only people from the South, Mid West, North East.

This really goes to how you see your experience. If you are considering yourself a beginner, then what you say makes sense as your opponents haven't established any real skills yet either. But if you are thinking that you've been around for 3 or 4 years and you are fighting the best 4 year student who doesn't dabble like you in his range, you'd get spanked unless of course the quality of the opponents you find isn't in line with a competitive and dedicated 4 year student.

Originally Posted by J-Luck

The above portion of response "D" covers your other b.s. points, such as:

"I know what you're trying to do and logically it makes sense, but realistically all you've done make up a better resume of teachers. Unless you study one discipline for years to get all that you can get out of it before moving on to another all your doing is studying MA buffet style. And even after mastering one style, you must start from the beginning in whatever you chose to do next. And so forth. Then and only then are you qualified to create a system that's been stripped down and tailor made to accomplish whatever goal you have in mind."

No, it does not reinforce that it has become Abu Dhabi with sloppy punches. YOU MADE THAT STATEMENT. That doesn't in any way qualify the statement.

Ummm, thaiboxing, kickboxing, boxing, brazilian jiu-jitsu, submission wrestling, Judo, karate, wrestling(all three major forms) and many, many more styles.
They are more than qualify(individually, or in any various combinations) to end a street fight.

First, I've never compared the UFC or Pride to the Abu Dhabi, and if I had it would have been a typo. The Abu Dhabi is to grappling what K-1 is to kickboxing. It is the forum for the elite grapplers. Neither the UFC or Pride are the same. What I said was MMA is a toughman contest with submission wrestling. There is a difference but I doubt that you can see that.

As far as you saying "Ummm, thaiboxing, kickboxing, boxing, brazilian jiu-jitsu, submission wrestling, Judo, karate, wrestling(all three major forms) and many, many more styles. They are more than qualify(individually, or in any various combinations) to end a street fight" what's your point? Anything can end a streetfight from all those you mentioned to a bullet. How is this relevant?

And while all of those disciplines you mentioned could end a streetfight, you'd have to be in great shape to successfully use those methods. Those styles are dueling styles, meaning that they aren't put together to end a fight fast or efficiently. They are methods used for bouts and spectator sports. And understanding that makes it clear that you have to be in great shape and competitive in those arts just to be effective. You won't see anyone old, fat or with asthma using thaiboxing or BJJ in the street successfully unless their opponent can't fight as all.

I know you don't understand the difference between dueling and a full on aggressive offensive attack, but then again I didn't expect you to.

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

Originally Posted by Uke

You won't see anyone old, fat or with asthma using thaiboxing or BJJ in the street successfully unless their opponent can't fight as all.

How would old, fat people with asthma defend themselves with then?
(serious question)

[jubaji]

pUke being an asshole and repeating himself over and over again...



Same old thing

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by 7r14ngL3Ch0k3

How would old, fat people with asthma defend themselves with then?
(serious question)

Gun-fu...

'Tis is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change".


-Charles Darwin

[Uke]

Originally Posted by 7r14ngL3Ch0k3

How would old, fat people with asthma defend themselves with then?
(serious question)

With methods that don't require extreme athleticism and stamina for long drawn out bouts that boxing, thaiboxing, wrestling, BJJ, submission wrestling all promote. No matter what event you've watched, there are no fast conclusions unless they are either willing to trade or they stand their posturing while the other guy sets them up for a bog shot.

That's not real combat. That's competition.

I didn't want to go off on that tangent 7r14ngL3Ch0k3, as I know this is the MMA forum, so I apologize.

[jubaji]

Originally Posted by pUke

With methods that don't require extreme athleticism and stamina.

In other words, the only things available to physical defectives like pUke.

[Uke]

Originally Posted by jubaji

pUke being an asshole and repeating himself over and over again...



Same old thing

I see why you hang out here, Jubaji. This site decided not to acknowledge that wrestling is combat so you're forced to forum hop due to no one discussing the greatness of suplexing.

Damn .. not even a sub-forum? Maybe you should take that as a hint that no one is interested in hearing what you have to say. You won't because you need to be accepted somewhere, so you'll hang around here saying nothing as usual.

[jubaji]

Originally Posted by pUke

boxing, thaiboxing, wrestling, BJJ, submission wrestling all promote. No matter what event you've watched, there are no fast conclusions .

That's pUke for ya, always reaching for new depths of stupidity!

[jubaji]

Originally Posted by pUke

This site decided not to acknowledge that wrestling is combat .

Darn, did I miss the vote?


Smells like someone's about to start repeating himself again...

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

Originally Posted by Uke

With methods that don't require extreme athleticism and stamina for long drawn out bouts that boxing, thaiboxing, wrestling, BJJ, submission wrestling all promote.

That's not real combat. That's competition.

Actually many fighting techniques that are used in competition are also useful and very effective on the street. And suprsingly, some of those tecniques dont even require much energy or strength at all.

And when situation is life or death or badly injured, then im sure most people will recognize that and pick up a blunt/sharp object and use it.

[J-Luck]

Originally Posted by Uke

Its amazing that you feel that you are qualified to judge things. You're basically trying to be eloquently rude without any substance to it. And for no apparent reason. I thought we were having a decent conversation, but as always you fall back into this same nonsense as a substitute for real knowledge.



Honestly, don't kid yourself. You've proven how stupid you are here time and time again by simply overreacting to posts that you've misread. Just a page ago you went on a tirade and then later admitted that it was all due to your poor reading comprehension. If after reading my post you felt that I need to feel superior then its a case of you needing to brush up on your "Hooked on Phonics" program.



Who cares what you consider? You're a 19 year old who sees himself as an authority in MA after studying less than 4 years, and has written that wrestling is the most formidable combat method. And I have mentioned the men I've worked with. You probably just misread the post as usual.



At what point did I say that jujitsu lost its deadly aspects? This is another case being made for you to leave MA forums alone until you can master reading ability. Randori was Kano's attempt at giving students an environment where they didn't have to fear receiving debilitating injuries that frequently occurred in jujitsu practice.



I haven't taken offense to anything, nor have I tried to be offensive in my last post which is why your rude stance makes no sense. This isn't the first time you've been a complete ass, and I still have the PM where you apologized for it the last time. Didn't matter because I knew you'd go back to being the pretentious little prick that you are. And lo and behold here we are.

As far as jujitsu goes on this forum, it means what it means. Even the Gracies claim to teach the full spectrum of jujitsu. When they give demos, you see them using throws and standup techniques, but those standup techniques are woefully absent once its time for them to apply it to a resisting opponent. No one but you, not even the Gracies who popularized BJJ, are under the illusion that mastering one aspect of an art makes you a jujitsu master.




Sure he is, under the standards that you're learning.




I believe I told you that.




Is it really? I know many children who are Golden Glove Champions. I go to a gym where they are groomed. Yet, here you go with your cross-training know-nothing ass talking about things that you believe but don't know.



Experience dictates that you double talk all the time. So I make my points as I see them. Just like when you got embarrassed when you went on and on about MMA being an official fighting system of the military, and then when SamuraiGuy pointed out that their skills were really terrible, you then and only then admitted that they don't use it because the reality of warfare today is munitions, which I had been saying all along. So save your speech about intelligence and context.



I haven't disputed the fact that his boxing skills have gotten better. They've gone from shitty to subpar. When compared to other combat athletes who use handskills(boxing/K-1), he and his ilk are on the lowest rung of the ladder.



You just can't respond period. You've tried before and failed miserably ... substituting insults where facts and examples should be, even when no one is being insulting towards you.



I recognize all of your points. I just don't agree with most of them because they aren't solid, just your opinions passed off without good reason behind them.



Actually, it doesn't. I don't know who you compare yourself to. I don't know the quality of these practitioner's training. You might be gifted, but if you were to face the best in the gym like I specifically said, you'd get your ass beat. Notice I said the best? You must have missed or misread that. I guess all your high IQ points were put into coming up with the "out the fuckin window" line. But when you get some time try to realize that my statements were made in terms of the best. And you have the nerve to whine about context?



If you're training at an MMA school you are learning little if any transition. I doubt you even know what I mean by transitioning between ranges as your understanding of basic MA terms and concepts is suspect, but rest assured that you aren't transitioning between ranges if you haven't even gotten solid skills due to buffet style training.



This really goes to how you see your experience. If you are considering yourself a beginner, then what you say makes sense as your opponents haven't established any real skills yet either. But if you are thinking that you've been around for 3 or 4 years and you are fighting the best 4 year student who doesn't dabble like you in his range, you'd get spanked unless of course the quality of the opponents you find isn't in line with a competitive and dedicated 4 year student.



First, I've never compared the UFC or Pride to the Abu Dhabi, and if I had it would have been a typo. The Abu Dhabi is to grappling what K-1 is to kickboxing. It is the forum for the elite grapplers. Neither the UFC or Pride are the same. What I said was MMA is a toughman contest with submission wrestling. There is a difference but I doubt that you can see that.

As far as you saying "Ummm, thaiboxing, kickboxing, boxing, brazilian jiu-jitsu, submission wrestling, Judo, karate, wrestling(all three major forms) and many, many more styles. They are more than qualify(individually, or in any var