Challenge Matches and BJJ's Deadly Techniques

[Oberleutnant]

Damn, this thread is like a flashback to the old, OLD school mousel's


"Pretend my pants are France and invade me!"

-Bud Bundi to a german girl

[Shimora]

I am deadly serious about what I said. To my detractors that label me "Troll" I can only assume you call anyone a troll that you disagree with.

Do I call sport grapplers Martial artists? Well I suppose they are just as much a Martial artist as a Karate Point Fighter or someone who enters competitions for Kata'a or Forms. Yes they all help to make up the modern Martial arts. In the true sense of the word however, they are far from Martial Artists.

Martial arts was invented to break bones and kill people without a weapon in the heat of battle. It goes back centuries to the days when wars were fought face to face against your enemy. Ground fighting is not suited to a true Martial enviroment. How would Royce Gracie have done in the Battle of Hastings?

To the person that says they see children doing the techniques I decribed. You are correct my friend, this is because it is the natural way a human fights. Do you see Lions in the Jungle going to Self Defense lessons? Do you see Pit Bulls being taught how to fight?
The reason you do not is because they have a natural instinct which tells them how to use their tools most effectively. In the same way a Human can do this also.
Our natural instinct is to bite, scratch, pull hair, poke & gouge eyes. Push, trip, Kick, punch, slap, pull hair, etc, etc.

If someone had me in their guard I would bite their nose off and spit it in their face. If someone attempted a triangle on me I would get my free hand and pinch their thigh or grab their testicles and pull.This would give me enough time to escape their hold. Every BJJ technique has a counter in real fighting systems. Its just that these techniques are banned in sport fighting.

How many street fights do you hear of that succesfully get finished with an armbar??? Give me a break. Have you ever seen Tank Abbot get armbarred yet he knows very little about BJJ. True fighters rarely get subbed.

If you think its easy to continue fighting when someone is gouging your eyes, has his fingers up your nose or your ass or has their teeth clamped on to a sensitive area then I suggest you keep on "fighting" under the protection of your sport fighting rules.

Even your hero Royce Gracie resorted to Hair pulling to defeat Kimo. At what level do they start teaching you to pull hair in BJJ? None of you can argue that it wasnt what gave him the edge he needed to win that fight.

Leave the real fighting to the true warriors.

[Qkfx]

Shimora-
1st of all you said pull hair 2x. 2ndly have you ever really put your finger in some guys ass-hole to win a fight? WTF? 3rd I don't think most of us were talking about sports grapppling. Of course there is a counter to most every move and there are always opportunities to scratch eyes and rack the nuts. I think what most of us are saying is that the grappler is more likely to take a guy down then be taken down and from there in a much better position to inflict whatever damage he wants (even checking his oil, if that's what you're into...do your thing Shimy). As well as be in a better position to defend those attacks. Also you come off with this arrogant "real warrior" tone as though you are on a forum full of pu$$ies. Of course I can't speak for everyone but I know there are alot of us who have been in more than our share of street fights and we know all too well how things can go. You think you're telling us something new?? Puhh-lease man. Save that news flash for your boys down at Exxon.

[Ryu (non-working password]

Grappling seems a better way for me to use "deadly techniques". The concepts of eye gouging, fishhooking, and throat strikes are all good, and they (in my opinion) are better suited for the grappler.
If you look at even karate "one hit kills" or "headbutting bricks" etc. You'll find that you can actually have a better chance of using those techniques if you are controlling your opponent with grappling skills.
Example, look at the karate guys who break bricks with their foreheads. Obviously you won't chase a guy around with your "deadly forehead" and try to headbutt him that way, but once you have an opponent unable to move of defend himself while you mount him, then you have a much more realistic chance of landing that brick-shattering headbutt. When it hits the guys face, and he's unable to block, duck, weave, etc....well....

Grappling skills make those kinds of deadly strikes easier.



Ryu

[Hookah Smokin Caterpillar]

Anyone that goes for subs in a fight are crazy. Come on Shimora, are you that ignorant to BJJ or what? In a fight, the last place I want to be is the guard. Since I'm a grappler, I see no reason to be on my back in a street fight. BJJ has many counters to everyday attacks that the average Joe who doesn't know shit about shit will fall victim to. Takedown, mount, punches to the face. Its elemintary

[armhunter]

Shimora,
where are you from? Maybe we can test your theory. I can put money down no problem. Lets see if you can bit me, or stick your finger in my eyes, before I do any kind of submission.

And I have seen several fights end with submissions, right after you beat on them a little, your break their arm, or choke them out. I have seen it too often...

Your stupid if you think that Lions are not taught how to hunt, or kill correctly. Yes most of it is instict, but while growing up, they watch the others hunt for food, and watch how they do it.

And if you turely believe we should just flail around like a little girl kicking and screeming while pulling someones hair, you go right on ahead.... Im not going to do it.

[Qkfx]

Sorry Shim I forgot your animal analogy. Animals have natural weapons (canines & claws), strength and reflexes that humans lack. What we have, most of us anyway, is intelligence, it's how we've dominated. So you take two guys, both with the ability to use the deadly eye gouges, hair pulling etc.. except one is an educated fighter who also knows how to take a man down and strike effectively. Who's going to win?

[PassiveGuy]

>>>"Sperry likens sport jujutsu to the fancy martial arts techniques seen in movies. 'They look great but have no place in a street fight', he explains. 'When you compete in the sport-jujutsu level, you use certain positions in a very flamboyant way.'

Sperry points to the guard position: 'In a jujutsu tournament, you want to pull your opponent into the guard because it enables you to use your legs and perform some really exotic reversals and obtain points. But in a street fight, being on your back is very dangerous, and the guard should only be used if you get into trouble and lose your positioning. If you end up on your back, you need to get out very quickly because a strong opponent can do great damage to you inside your guard.' <<<

[Qkfx]

I'm not really sure what the point of your post is? R U supporting Shimora?
I think we have all said several times over that we are not talking sports grappling. We have said that a grappler, jiu-jitsu or wrestler has the better chance of taking the other man down and holding top position.
No one I know wants to go to guard in a street fight, but if you end up there it's far better than most other alternatives.

[PassiveGuy]

Q: I do seem to agree with shimora alot on this topic. Maybe because were both mainly standup fighters??? I thought some of you might be interested in what a great like Sperry thinks.

[Hookah Smokin Caterpillar]

Passive Guy. I have a question...

Did you not read the posts up there that say, "We do NOT go to the guard in a street fight?"

[Shimora]

Passive, I think its amusing that even when you quote a great BJJ fighter like Sperry these sport grapplers refuse to see reason.

To the people that giggled at my mention of pulling hair are you serious? Did you not see how Royce Gracie controlled Kimo by holding his hair? Do you deny that someone could not do the same to you in a real fight?
A few years ago a guy with a ponytail was hassling a small friend of mine. I came up behind him, grabbed his ponytail pulling it downwards which cranked his head back and reigned punches and then elbows down onto his face and nose. I used his ponytail as a handle and there was nothing he could do about it.

Of course if you put two guys in a cage and allow gouging, biting etc the more experienced fighter will win. I am a firm believer that we should train in biting and gouging etc the way sport grapplers train in their submission wrestling. You can set up a major artery bite or an eye gouge in the same way a sport grappler can set up a submission.

I think some people are losing track of this thread. The original post was stating that "deadly techniques" are BS. In my opinion they are not BS and if you want to be a complete fighter you must train in them just as you train in punching, kicking and submission wrestling.

I take it none of you saw the following MMA matches.

John Hess vs Andy Anderson

Gary Goodridge vs The Pedro

Royce Gracie vs Kimo

Chris Hausman vs Elvis Sinosic

Keith Hackney vs Jo Son

Just to name a few. All these fights were won by using
dirty techniques more common to a street fight than a sport fight.

Mark Kerr and Chris Hausman have both used their chins to do Eye pokes in MMA matches and it won them the fight.

Do not be so narrow minded my sport wrestling amigo's.

Just because you dont see it on a Gracie instructional tape does not mean it doesnt work.

[Ryan The Bad]

I said in a latter post-
"Not to say that those techs don't have their place, but against a decent fighter (striker or grappler), they would almost be worthless."

I never said that they were BS, just that they wouldn't work against somebody who knew what they were doing.

Now how many pro fighters have lost to triangles, arm-bars and chokes??? My guess is: a lot. You named 5 fighters that lost to dirty subs, yet I'm sure that there have been thousands of well-known HNB fights... And don't tell me that there has probably been thousands of fights that ended with dirty subs, because there hasn't... Maybe they would work (poorly) on the street with the average-Joe, but not in pro-fights.

Where did you guys get this "Sport Jiu-Jitsu from"???? Who said that first??? ... O wait, it was Shimora! That's right! Since he's a ninja and thrives in the darkness, sneaking up behind people to pull their hair and check their oil, he thought it would be to his advantage to assume that we were talking about sport jiu-jitsu when we really weren't.

Also, Royce won by an arm-bar, not pulling hair.

[Ryan The Bad]

"In my opinion they (dirty moves) are not BS and if you want to be a complete fighter you must train in them just as you train in punching, kicking and submission wrestling."
-Shimora

Good point, but I'd rather leave them out of my training to focus on things that will tap out somebody right away.

Also, you said that you would "train in them"... I thought you said that they were "the natural way a human fights". Odd.

[Rob B]

Shimora,

Are you willing to rip a guys throat out if he steps to you Snoop Dog. Are you really ready to rip a guys eyes out and blind him for life just because he's drunk and throws a haymaker at you. Are you going to take a bite out of a guy, hit a major artery and watch him bleed to death.

If I feel myself or my family is in mortal danger than yes I would go that extra step; anything else and it simply isn't worth it. Shimora it sounds like you know nothing about consequence or living in a civilzed society. Next time you get into a fight, go ahead punch him in the throat. You'll have alot of time to contemplate what it means to be a "true martial artist" with a life sentance, oh I guess unless you live in Texas, you'll just be dead.