Pride 13 Smackdown: Bjj Humiliated By Wrestling

[Americana]

Not since Amaury Bitteti (sp) took his kimono off, stepped into the Octagon, and took on Don Frye, have we seen such a beat down of bjj. Renzo was ko'd by Dan Henderson. Goes was crushed and ko'd by knees from Mark Coleman. Even the lowly Bitteti was tko'd rather than ko'd.

Why? I've said it before and I'll say it again: Renzo Gracie is not athelte enough to be competing on this level. That is not bias. It's bilology. Renzo is a natural light weight, who I'm sure could make fly weight. Just because you're a Gracie doesn't mean you have the athletics to compete with the big boys. Renzo is a case in point.

This is three losses in a row for Renzo. He's 34 years old and will never get better or stronger. Hang it up Renzo!

Goes is more of a physical specimen. But how could this master grappler not know how to defend a front head lock? Was it arrogance? Anyway, he looked a buffoon when Coleman started dropping those knees on his head.

Renzo, Royce, etc. are the old guard, who made their bones on the old bjj v. tkd challenge matches. I feel nostalgic watching those old fights. But its time for this new bjj generation to step up to the plate. Renzo, Royce and Rickson are has beens, late them fade into history.

[Mr. Miyagi]

Good post Americana even though it's going to tick some people. Bjj is a specialized aspect of fighting; Silva and Belfort use it in conjunction with other skills quite well. The sport is changing and smaller, weaker expert grapplers are now losing out to the stronger natural athletes that already rule all the mainstream sports.

[Shimora]

The only time BJJ has ever been effective in MMA was in the early days when most guys had no clue about submissions.
Now that everyone knows the BJJers game they have no secret weapon. BJJ is a great sport but it is hardly relative to a real fight which allows striking.
Even Royce Gracie, the one BJJ guy to be succesful in the early days now trains in Muay Thai and Kali. So much for BJJ being a complete art.

[Ryu (non-working password]

JKD?

[parrishbjj]

What is bilology?

[Mad Dog]

Coleman is like, so "natural", huh?

[Martial Artist]

I love how you didnt say that Vitor Choked Southworth out in 1:30 True,Renzo is a lightweight and has met a series of loses lately.But I dont think that Renzo X Milatech would be much of a fight.There arent alot of lightweights that can hang with Renzo.Renzo,Royce,and Rickson are not has beens.How can you say that Royce is a has been?He fought a hour and a half with the #1 middle weight in the world and finally tosses in the towl.So that makes him a has been.I dont know if Sak tapped out like a quitting tap but in the 2nd round,Sak tapped.Royce,Renzo,and Rickson can tap out ANY middle weight in the world.Be it Frank Shamrock,Tito Ortiz,Kevin Randleman,Royce can tap them all.

[Shimora]

Southworth is hardly a worthy opponent for Belfort.
A girl scout could have choked him out.
Belfort is more of a boxer than a grappler which is the only reason he's done OK in MMA.

[Scott Harper]

Martial Artist - what you said seems kind of contradictory. "How can you say that Royce is a has been?He fought a hour and a half with the #1 middle weight in the world and finally tosses in the towl."..."Royce,Renzo,and Rickson can tap out ANY middle weight in the world.Be it Frank Shamrock,Tito Ortiz,Kevin Randleman,Royce can tap them all." I'm trying to figure out what you mean. To me throwing in the towel is the same as tapping. The person throwing in the towel is saying they don't want any more.

[Mr. Miyagi]

Martial Artist, if those Gracies can really tap anyone how come they don't then? Belfort's athleticism and striking skills along with his grappling make him a top fighter. Royce's effort against Sak was great as was Renzo's, but c'mon, after watching those fights you could see plain and simple that Sak was in charge and in no danger the whole time. I admire your loyalty to bjj but those guys have to show results to back up your theory. Bjj is still the best art for us weaklings on this forum to train in for self defense.

[Qkfx]

Bjj may not be a complete art, but the guys who beat Goes and Renzo were not "strikers". They were beaten by great grapplers, who in out-wrestling their opponents set themselves up to deliver effective strikes. The winning formula seems to be big Americam wrestlers who are learning to hit hard. Also if BJJ has become so ineffective then why do most of the top competitors train it? I'll answer that for you, because it is effective so they know they have to learn to guard against it.

[Scott Harper]

Qkfk - Then because wrestlers are winning now, BJJ stylists should go and cross-train in wrestling and striking. Because wrestling and striking is so effective now, then BJJ people should train in those aspects? The good thing that you said was that the grapplers set their opponents up to deliver their strikes. That shouldn't have happened. Now it seems that BJJ stylists should cross-train in other areas.

[Lithp]

And I have yet to see a wrestler on steroids.

[Qkfx]

Scott I agree completely. Bjj is nearly useless if you can't take the man down. And hell yeah the harder you hit the better in any fight. My main point was the striking opportunity wouldn't have been there if the guy wasn't first a superior grappler putting the man in a bad position.

[Mr. Miyagi]

The BJJ guys would improve marginally if they crosstrained in other useful arts. But even so, most of them just aren't the athletes that it takes to be a great MMA fighter. Royce can train in wrestling and muy thai all he wants but he'll still never be able to take down or effectively strike some of these guys. BJJ is an art that is forgiving of physical stature and brute power but MMA requires these.