TOAS NABARD, persian art of combat

[Oestad John]

Look at the history of the region! Between the time period of 6 to 18 century B.C. the Persian encompasses the region of China, Iran, Iraq. During the Persian reign of King Xerxes and Cryus the Great, Persian thought ruled over these areas.

TOAS Nabard was intoduced over 25 years ago with the intent to teach martial arts without the forethought that someone will question its origin as Chinese. The martial world seems to accept that kung-fu or any form of martial arts originated from China. I don't believe this notion. Many movies and advertisement over the past 75 years has portray that martial arts has originated from China. People forget the notion that martial arts exist in every country and nation. I'm I suppose to beileved that martial arts is unique only to China! That's crazy. Is Brazilian Judo unique from Japanese Judo? Does tae kwoon do different from Japaneses karate, akido, or shotokan. These examples that martial arts exist in many cultures and nation.
If TOAS Nabard first introduced itself as Persian art of Combat nobody would believed it, that Persian has their unique style. It is not plausible or accepted in teaching in America. Nobody would join. Using the term Kung fu made it easier to attract students.
If TOAS NAbard introduces itself as the Varzesh-e-Pahlavani (Persian war-training regimen or "sport or exercise of heroes") people would be confused. The public are not so easily accepting of different ideas or of that of other languages or culture.
To exemplify Persian ideology, look at the philosophy of Zoroastrianism. The idea of free thought and personal responsibility. This philosophy if someone research it would be surprised in its influences to Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, Islam and other modem beliefs.
Now to figure out TOAS Nabard clothing how it looks Chinese? If you research Persian clothing or culture you will come across literature that " Persians introduce two garments to history of clothings : trousers and seamed fitted coats. Adopted by the Central Asia and northern Europe ...(China, India and Celtic People of Northern Europe) (cited from autocww.colorado.edu/~blackmon/E64contentfiles/DecorativeArts/clothing.html)
TOAS Nabard is a young style growing slowly but it struggles in demonstrating itself to the world one person at a time. Why is the public so fixated in Chinese thought. All knowledge is unique to every culture and nation, once it is shared where did it began. "To know the truth one must educate themselves of what is true" Ostad John
If not our eyes will only see pictures or images of what is true. Thank you for your time and responses.

[Mike Brewer]

Look at the Kung Fu sign over the door!

Yes, Brazilian Judo is slightly different from Japanese Judo - but the Brazilians have no problems acknowledging that their art came from Japan. Likewise, Bruce Lee put together an art called Jeet Kune Do, but never had any problems giving the nod to Wing Chun as his foundation. The difference here appears to be one not so much about validity of material, but honesty about sources. No one here, myself included, would look at that site (the one you recommended, by the way) and buy the idea that it was created purely from Persian sources. No one would buy the idea that despite going to mainstream martial arts schools all his life, the founder of this art just up and created something entirely Persian. I am not questioning the art. I'm not even questioning the founder. I'm just questioning the portrayal, the marketing, to the general public. I guess if it's good material, I don't see why anyone would be bashful about saying, "Yes, the Chinese martial arts I studued all my life had a definite impact on my martial art."

And if hanging up a Kung Fu sign was a game to get people in the door 25 years ago, why's it still up? Surely people can see this art for what it is now? Surely you don't need to deceive people into coming in for Kung Fu and then giving them something else. And if you're going to leave a Kung Fu sign over the door to the school, it might be a good idea not to get so upset when people start comparing it to Kung Fu. They're only telling people what they see.

[Anti]

I would say that this is a persian kungfu style, but is kung fu. Persian Kung Fu. because, just becasue kung fu originated in China doesnt mean it stays ther (obviously). Just like TKD being everywhere. With TKD the basis of the style remains the same, but the practice of theat tkd changes with exp and travel, as does everything. Nothin wrong with the style, and no it is not chinese, but the basis of this kungfu style is the same as its chinese origins, soley because it is kung fu. I dont see the problem, im sorry. I am just starting to get back on this forum (i have a computer again ^^).
-Anti

[Oestad John]

I've been a practitioner of TOAS Nabard for many years. I've known its origins and its founder for long time.

KUNG FU

Defined by Merrian-Webster as a noun, Chinese derivative of the word GONGFU-- as a skill, art: dated in 1966

Webster dictionary
defines KUNG FU or gongfu as its original meaning referring to one's expertise in any skill, not necessarily martial.

Wikipedia.org/wiki/kungfu/history
Quoted as "according to legend Chan (Zen) Buddhist monk Bodhidarma, kung fu also has its origin in India. around the time of 500 C E"
Kung fu in a 20th century term doesn't exist in an ancient texts
Introduced to the Shaolin monk of Henan Province.
Kung fu the term was first used by a Westerner, French Jesuit missionary Jean Joseph Marie Amiot in the 18th century
The term kung fu was popularized in the late 1960's by Hong Kong films. Then later the term kung fu was define as "Chinese Boxing", now in modern times is defined as chinese martial arts.
But in truth kung fu true roots reffered to the process of one's training and strenghering of the body and the mind, learning and perfecting of one's skill rather than to what was being trained. " refers to excellence achived through long practices in any endeavor. IE. you can say that a person's kung fu is good cooking, or that someone has kung fu in calligraphy.......... a person possesing kung fu in an area implies skill in that area.
Tell me that I should take down the sign Kung fu----know the truth of the word kung fu... We of TOAS NABARD are practitioners of a true art separate from your Chinese KUNG FU. We train to strengthening of the body and the mind to transcend and excel beyond the norm or comfort zone.
Tell me that I'm lost in a dream having illusions of what is true. Being true to your art is knowing yourself and having roots to your art versus posing an idea of your art.
Thank you for your acknowledging TOAS NABARD, a skill and an art in the martial genre.

[Mike Brewer]

John, you're missing the point. If that's what you were trying to communicate, you could easily have hung out a sign that said "Skills taught here!" Maybe something like "Self-Defense." My point is that in choosing to use a recognizable Chinese term to describe your art to the public, you're inviting these kinds of questions. I know that Kung Fu means "Skill." But what does it mean to a kid looking for self-defense classes? You can pretend you don't see the point all you want, but it's utterly transparent. How do you say "Skill" in Persian? Why not put that on the sign? Oh, right. You make more money putching it as Kung Fu.

Call the art whatever you like, man. I'm not your Dad. All I'm saying is that it's tough to justify getting all bent out of shape when people look at the material you've posted and make comparisons to kung fu! It's totally reasonable! It ought to be fully and completely expected! You're trying to sell us on the notion that this is a purely Persian system that stands on its own, but you can't even sell it without propping it up with some Chinese terminology? Get real!

[Hot_Wings]

I have been to the TOAS school on three separate occasions. Two of those times I actually sat down and talked with Master Sofaku one on one about my own question about his background and training and what he teaches. I meant to take classes there but then I move to a different city. I have since moved back to Pensacola and I went once again to check out the school and sign up for classes. Regrettably, my work schedule change only a few days after getting the money to sign up.

I found Master Sofaku to be very down to earth and technically oriented. He pointed me to do other research to verify the origins of Martial arts and fully admitted to me at the time that Kung Fu was a major part of the system, but that it was changed to reflect a more useful and practical system for actual self defense. At the time that I was checking out the school is was called TOAS Nabard Kung Fu. That’s even how it is listed in the phone book to this day. However, he has since taken away a lot of the references to this on his web site and I assume in other media, like brochures. But while many of you see this as some kind of fraud, I see this as a vote of confidence in his truthfulness.

Bruce Lee never called Jeet Kun Do “Jeet Kun Do-Kung Fu” even while fully admitting that he borrowed heavily from Wing Chun. And I certainly don’t think that after over 20 years of further refining his own variations of TOAS Nabard that Master Sofaku should call his School Kung Fu any more either. He only did so to help people who didn’t understand martial arts to figure out what his trained was most likened to from the laymen standpoint. Once again, I see this as a vote of confidence in his honesty, not some hoodwinking of his students. The first time that I met him he was completely honest with me about what he was teaching and why it was called what it was called. I assume that same must be true for others if he has been teaching loyally devoted students for over 20 years in the same location.

No, I am pretty sure that Master Sofaku is the real deal, because Pensacola is a relatively small city and a big military town. Fly by night “Self Defense” joints come and go here all the time. Some military retiree is always popping open another “Self Defense” place around Pensacola all the time. Meanwhile, Master Sofaku still gains loyal students all the time, many of them from the failed fly by night “Self Defense” places, as he has always done.

Master Sofaku could have easily called his school, “Self Defense” or simply “Martial Arts” as many other unprofessional places do, but that’s not who Master Sofaku is in my opinion. Instead, he called his school what most people would recognize from a particular arts standpoint. It is much easier to just call yourself “martial arts”, but like Bruce Lee, Master Sofaku told the truth about what he is teaching, why he is teaching it, and where the system originated from.

People all over this forum often say things like, “I do some JKD and utilize my stick maneuvers from kali” all the time. They often tell people that use this part of a system of martial arts for one thing and then some other system for another. Do you fault them for doing so? Of course not. Here you call that honesty and being forthright, but then you look at Master Sofaku and claim that he is not being honest when he is trying to do the same thing.

All anyone had to do was read his web site to find out what is going on. His web site is one of the most complete martial arts school web sites that I have ever seen, which is where these videos come from in the first place. But instead of crediting him with going above and beyond and showing actual students of his performing extended routines, you all slam him for being some kind of knock off. If he was just a knock off he would be showing you his students online. Instead, he would be telling to by his book for 20 bucks and some DVD.

Sometimes it seems you martial arts people are never happy. Damned if you do and damned if you don’t. I for one would feel honored to take classes from Master Sofaku because he has done a considerable amount of work on his school, his students, and his system. That alone is more than I can say for almost all of the other so called schools that I have seen.

The schools that I have seen are some empty small room in a strip mall somewhere that doesn’t even have a balancing pole area at all, let alone one outside in the open air. Most places that I have seen don’t even have a building with ceiling in it that are taller than a normal house. How are you to practice pole arm weapons in a 7 foot ceiling room? The answer is that you can’t.

No, I am pretty darn sure that Master Sofaku is the real deal and one of best friends trained with him for over a year and said the same thing.

[Mike Brewer]

Again, I am not trying to say anything negative about the founder or his school. My point is that if you hang up a kung fu sign in front of your school, people are going to compare what you do to kung fu. Is that not reasonable? Is it so offensive that there are now three people here so worried about defending the man's honor that they miss that one simple point? Hot Wings, you're the first student of TOAS Nabard to actually come right out and say there was a strong foundation in kung fu. Of course there was. We could all see that plainly from the outset! I've been saying all along that the connection to kung fu was obvious. Never once did I say it was a negative thing.

This encapsulates it well:

Bruce Lee never called Jeet Kun Do “Jeet Kun Do-Kung Fu” even while fully admitting that he borrowed heavily from Wing Chun. And I certainly don’t think that after over 20 years of further refining his own variations of TOAS Nabard that Master Sofaku should call his School Kung Fu any more either.

No, but he acknowledged openly the sources from which it was drawn. Hot Wings, you have done that by saying "TOAS Nabard came from Kung Fu originally." However, other people here have replied as if Kung Fu is some kind of dirty word that makes their art impure. They've insisted that it's just a word, and that it has nothing to do with anything Chinese. They've insisted that TOAS Nabard is a purely Persian fighting system, and that somehow, I'm being unfair is pointing out the kung fu roots.

As I suspected, the founder of the system seems honest enough to say "this is where it all came from, and I have since changed the things I learned to meet a modern need." He seems like an honest person, willing to acknowledge what these other folks want to sweep under the rug. Honestly, the reason I got into the discussion was because someone had a problem with a reply that said TOAS looked like kung fu, and he directed us to look at the website. Right on the top of the website is a picture of the TOAS school with a giant kung fu sign over the door! Obviously it's an acknowledgement that TOAS is more like Kung Fu than, say, karate. The founder recognizes and admits it, but some of his disciples lack that same intellectual honesty. They instead feel a need to push kung fu off in the background and deny that it has any influence on TOAS.

[Hot_Wings]

I apologize Mike, I didn’t really answer your questions about the Kung Fu thing. The reason that many of his students argue the point about “Is Nabard Kung Fu?” is because of the stated origins of Martial Arts itself. You see, most of us think that Kung Fu itself originally came from China, but that isn’t the whole story. The Chinese monks wrote down that a Persian man from India named Bodhidharma as one of the sources that introduced martial arts to the monks.

The Chinese documents from the emperor list Bodhidharma as a Persian. Now it is commonly understood that this man may have not completely introduced martial arts to China. All countries of antiquity developed some forms of established hand to hand combat techniques. However, it is certain that this Persian was very influential concerning what we now speak of as Kung Fu.

What Master Sofaku is trying to explain to people is that the original martial arts that came from Persia never died out. In times of antiquity, The Persians were one of the most powerful empires in the known world. They are the ones who fought the now often spoken of 300 Spartans.

Mater Sofaku is stating that the original Persian Martial arts system was never lost to antiquity and that he has now combined that system with other different forms of combat. That’s why his students often get into the “Kung Fu” debate. They say that Nabard is not Kung fu. What they are trying to say that Nabard is, in essence, the original martial arts that came from Persia. In a simplified manner they are saying that Kung Fu is not Chinese, but instead, really Persian. Historical records do back up this claim. As you can see it is a complicated matter.

It does beg the question, “If Kung Fu came from a guy called Bodhidharma, a Persian from India, then what was the original Persian or Indian name for the martial arts that he taught the Chinese Monks?” Even the word Kung Fu is a general term that doesn’t necessarily point to a specific martial art. It is also a modern word. It makes sense, given the historical record of Bodhidharma, that the Chinese would give the martial arts a very general name considering that, from its very outset, it was a combination of different fighting techniques from all over the known world. That’s the part that Americans have a hard time understanding that students of Nabard fully understand. The true fact that Kung Fu itself is a compilation of different systems from all around the world escapes most people. It is not a system developed only from china with no other influence from any other martial system.

Now you can see why Master Sofaku has had such a hard time explaining to people what he is teaching and where it “Really” comes from. Add to that the difficulty of Master Sofaku himself adding different techniques from, let’s say, Kali or Judo (I don’t know if he has done this or not) and you can see why naming his system accurately is very difficult.

So, is it Kung Fu? Sure, it has elements taken from the original Persian Martial Arts from antiquity that the Chinese integrated into various Chinese martial arts systems. See the difficulty here? Kung Fu is not solely Chinese. That is where the source of this confusion lies. And that is why students of Nabard will say, “No, it’s not Kung fu, Its Persian.” It is because a lot of Kung Fu was learned from a Persian Man from India. But it takes some research and reading to understand the real truth that all martial arts are in essence “Mixed Martial Arts”, even the very old ones from China.

[bodhisattva]

Originally Posted by Oestad John

Where do all martial arts originate?

I think Martial Arts originated wherever men originated. I think men have been fighting, and trying to win more often, since men have existed.

[Hot_Wings]

Said another way…

Martial Arts began when Cain killed his own brother Able. These were the first two humans born outside the Garden of Eden. Martial Arts practices have been developing ever since.

[DickHardman]

Originally Posted by Hot_Wings

Said another way…

Martial Arts began when Cain killed his own brother Able. These were the first two humans born outside the Garden of Eden. Martial Arts practices have been developing ever since.

yeah and, paul bunion is this giant lumber jack who had a giant blue ox. and mike mulligan was this dude who had a steam shovel for a friend.

[cheech]

HI, a small introduction. I studied at TOAS about 20 years ago when the name was still TOA. I studied w/ master Safakhoo for about 8 years and was a senior student and was used as an "enforcer" to "spank" the tough guys that were unnecessarily rough.

I missed the early years when the training was harder, but it was still harder than the current training. The story we were told was that Safakhoos' masters master was Chinese. TOA became TOAS because of the modifications he'd made to the system. The forms have changed over the years, sometimes radically.

I started by enrolling my kids in the school, then one of the other parents suggested that I should join also. After a while I became a confidant, and we invited him over to eat on various occasions as he was very poor at the time. At one point he offered me the school, which I politely declined, as I had 3 kids a wife and other things I wanted to do.

I periodically check in on him to see how he's doing, and Google TOAS kung fu to see what the latest is. That's when I ran across this thread. After leaving him I went on to pickup forms and techniques from other styles, hung gar, wing chun, baqua, choy li fut, tai chi and a few others. My first martial activity was amateur wrestling, and my last was Capoeira. I've been trying to catch one of the new guys, Tony, as I was told he was very good.

[Caveman]

Well, its sort of like how there is those dojo's that say on the sign "American Karate" ---show US Flag---


To me it looks the same...

[Mike Brewer]

Except American Karate guys rarely take exception to you calling them American...

[cheech]

I can guarantee that TOAS is not uniquely Persian. In fact, originally "Persian" was used instead of Iranian because of the negative stigma attached to Iran. Safakhoo left Iran shortly after the Shah was deposed. It's Persian only in the sense that BJJ is Brazilian. The clothing, yes, is not Chinese. Nor are the names of the forms and techniques. Which makes sense, since everyone learning the original TOA style was Iranian.

It's also most definitely Kung fu. Both because of the meaning of Kung fu, and because it was derived from Chinese martial arts.

Mater Sofaku is stating that the original Persian Martial arts system was never lost to antiquity and that he has now combined that system with other different forms of combat. That’s why his students often get into the “Kung Fu” debate. They say that Nabard is not Kung fu. What they are trying to say that Nabard is, in essence, the original martial arts that came from Persia. In a simplified manner they are saying that Kung Fu is not Chinese, but instead, really Persian. Historical records do back up this claim. As you can see it is a complicated matter.

During the 8 years I was studying w/ him, this explanation never came up. Neither did students that had been w/ him almost from the beginning, ever recount this story. I'm pretty sure this is just a result of how TOAS has evolved over the years. Safakhoo never had a problem saying that kung fu TOA was derived from Chinese kung fu. His explanation for the change from TOA to TOAS was that TOA was a simple style, and his additions justified the change. A lot of changes were based on business decisions. The core group consisted of about 5 students, but that wasn't enough money coming in to keep the doors open. The training became easier so the new guys would stay longer and finance training for the core group. The last time I checked, students were no longer allowed to kick to the legs while sparring, because someone complained. One of the other students that started before me to this day complains of how the style has been watered down to cater to the noobs, and has no problem saying so to Safakhoo. However, it is a business and something had to be done to keep the new students from leaving to pay for the training of the students that really wanted to learn.