TOAS NABARD, persian art of combat

[Mike Brewer]

Cheech, I respect the man and the art more for your post here than anything I had seen before. I don't know why people shy away from that kind of honesty, but they do. Many of us have been there. I ran a commercial school for many years, and it's a constant dilemma: How do you keep the doors open so that you can continue to provide for those five or six really wonderful students? You hand the masses something they can have fun with and let them pay the bills. It's often times a necessary thing. I don't think it took away from the quality of the program, and I'm not suggesting that you go all powder-puff to make a buck, but any commercial school owner that refuses to acknowledge that some of what they do is built in just so they can turn a profit is full of it. Dan Inosanto told me once that I was really blessed because I had about six really serious students that worked their asses off to get better. Six out of forty, he said, was a good ratio. We had plenty more who were fit, capable martial artists, but six of them had that hunger and lust for the arts. Effectively, that means 34 of those students were there because I wanted to keep training with the top six. There's no dishonor in that, especially if you're providing the same opportunities for everybody and it sounds like TOAS does.

But the trigger-happy defensiveness at pointing out the obvious? People getting upset when you draw comparisons to kung fu? That kind of stuff is pure blind loyalty for loyalty's sake, and it neither impresses anyone nor lends any credibility to what's said. Your post, on the other hand, was the perfect response - honest, forthright, informative, and unapologetic - and I applaud you for it.

[cheech]

I appreciate your response Mike. I normally direct people to TOAS w/ the following caveat.. The first 2 or 3 years are a testing period. You will be given very little other than forms. The expectation is that if the student is interested enough and dedicated, then they'll think things through, and put a real effort to work things out themselves. The way Safakhoo learned was pretty old school. There was an elevated platform that his master would use to demonstrate a single technique, then leave. The student was expected to pay attention, then work out the difficulties w/ other students. Safakhoo softened the teaching method a bit, as he will, or at least would answer questions and make corrections. However, the expectation is that when enough experience is gained, the student should be able to tell when something isn't quite right. The student should be able to tell when a technique is executed properly.

The guys who are studying at TOAS need to be aware that learning is a continuous, long term process. Some people have enough talent that they can be relatively formidable in a couple of years, but for most it will take longer. Also, at least initially, every effort should be made to learn the style as taught, but almost any style will necessitate changes to fit ones personal build, abilities etc. When I sparred, I very rarely used Safakhoos style or strategy, because I was normally the shortest, and smallest one there, excepting the females or kids. However, he liked the way I sparred because I was "sneaky". One of the nice things about developing your own style is that you can incorporate things that work for you. Which is exactly what Safakhoo did w/ TOA.

Frankly, I was a bit disappointed w/ the videos. I see a bit too much slop and weakness there. However, it's just PR. It's staged to spark an interest. The "real" stuff comes later. It's on the same level as some of the martial arts demos. When Safakhoo was learning in Iran, they would have periodic demonstrations to attract new students. Same thing here and w/ the web site. Back when I was wrestling, and in my prime, it took me about 3 years before I was really working anywhere near my potential.. And I had a talent for it. Those were the most intense workouts I've ever been through. Much harder than any martial arts training I've been through. New guys have to give it time, and a real effort.

In conclusion, TOAS is a bona fide martial art, and kung fu. Not uniquely Persian, but w/ Iranian/Persian influence. It has it's weaknesses, but I think it's one of the best first styles to learn in this area.

[Mike Brewer]

That may be the turn-off for a lot of people here. Serious students in today's world tend to want to start out by training seriously, not enduring two or three years of "testing" first. Most serious students (rightly, I think) believe that they could really accomplish a lot with those first couple of years if they were allowed to train at the level of their passion in useful, practical concepts and ideas. The notion of students undergoing extensive examination periods is, in my own humble opinion, horribly outdated. You can accomplish the same thing by working them to death on the basics of the system in true combative form and still determine whether or not they have the right type of character and disposition to move into whatever the teacher might call "advanced." I'm not potshotting the TOAS methodology, mind you; rather, just trying to explain why a lot of people here might be put off.

Frankly, I was a bit disappointed w/ the videos. I see a bit too much slop and weakness there. However, it's just PR. It's staged to spark an interest. The "real" stuff comes later.

This brings up another important question. Perhaps I'm unusual in thinking this way, but if one were trying to go for a good P.R. effect, wouldn't he/she want to put the best foot forward? I mean, in any other sort of advertising, the goal is to sex things up and make them look as great and wonderful as possible. You'll never see a car commerical with the new model car's right front hub cap missing and a bondo patch on the front fender. You don't see JC Penney advertising the new Spring line of fashions with tattered elbows in all the shirts. In literally ever other type of P.R. campaign, the intent is to showcase the best possible view of the product or service one can possibly muster. By your post, it's clear that TOAS chose not to do so. Why do you suppose that is? Why "hide" the "real" stuff when the ultimate goal is to sell the system for what it is?

[Tom Yum]

Here's a video of some nice Persian art.

[still-learning]

Cheech,
I'm pretty sure that I know you, based on some things you wrote.
Hope you are well. We did some stuff in your backyard a couple of times.
(thanks again, by the way)
I trained toas for a while myself, mostly after you had already left. Since then I have worked on some other things, but have used toas as my 'base', and still continue to practice certain things from that style.
Good to 'see' you again.

[Tom Yum]

Originally Posted by Oestad John

Look at the history of the region! Between the time period of 6 to 18 century B.C. the Persian encompasses the region of China, Iran, Iraq. During the Persian reign of King Xerxes and Cryus the Great, Persian thought ruled over these areas.

TOAS Nabard was intoduced over 25 years ago with the intent to teach martial arts without the forethought that someone will question its origin as Chinese. The martial world seems to accept that kung-fu or any form of martial arts originated from China. I don't believe this notion. Many movies and advertisement over the past 75 years has portray that martial arts has originated from China. People forget the notion that martial arts exist in every country and nation. I'm I suppose to beileved that martial arts is unique only to China! That's crazy. Is Brazilian Judo unique from Japanese Judo? Does tae kwoon do different from Japaneses karate, akido, or shotokan. These examples that martial arts exist in many cultures and nation.
If TOAS Nabard first introduced itself as Persian art of Combat nobody would believed it, that Persian has their unique style. It is not plausible or accepted in teaching in America. Nobody would join. Using the term Kung fu made it easier to attract students.
If TOAS NAbard introduces itself as the Varzesh-e-Pahlavani (Persian war-training regimen or "sport or exercise of heroes") people would be confused. The public are not so easily accepting of different ideas or of that of other languages or culture.
To exemplify Persian ideology, look at the philosophy of Zoroastrianism. The idea of free thought and personal responsibility. This philosophy if someone research it would be surprised in its influences to Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, Islam and other modem beliefs.
Now to figure out TOAS Nabard clothing how it looks Chinese? If you research Persian clothing or culture you will come across literature that " Persians introduce two garments to history of clothings : trousers and seamed fitted coats. Adopted by the Central Asia and northern Europe ...(China, India and Celtic People of Northern Europe) (cited from autocww.colorado.edu/~blackmon/E64contentfiles/DecorativeArts/clothing.html)
TOAS Nabard is a young style growing slowly but it struggles in demonstrating itself to the world one person at a time. Why is the public so fixated in Chinese thought. All knowledge is unique to every culture and nation, once it is shared where did it began. "To know the truth one must educate themselves of what is true" Ostad John
If not our eyes will only see pictures or images of what is true. Thank you for your time and responses.

Howdy, John!

Hope no one was offended by the beautiful Persian woman performing the dance. Looks like a good workout for someone.

I've pulled up several maps of the Persian Empire from good old wiki to see its expansion during different time periods.

Here it is during 6th century AD (The Sassanid period)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Persia_600ad.jpg

The farthest eastward it approaches is the land of Kashmir.

Around that same time 7th Century AD to 9th Century AD, China's borders extended to the approximate tip of the Persian Empire just short of Kashmir.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:T...rca_700_CE.png

How did Persian-Sino cultures exchange goods and ideas?

The Silk Road.

Built in the 1st century AD, but re-opened during the Tang Dynasty when cultural trade flourished between China-Persian Empire-India-Japan-Korea-SE Asia. But what of the genetic diversity of the folks living between The Persian Empire and China?

In the next couple hundred years Genghis Khan and his direct descendants conquered most of China, a large part Russia, Persia and land all the way up to Baghdad. So if anything, the descendants of central Asia are of Arab-Mongolian-Russian decent, maybe with some Chinese thrown in.

9th Century AD
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Asia_900ad.jpg
Looks like the Persian empire might have expanded into the northern states of India. The closest it may have ever gotten to China might be Tibet, but this isn't confirmed.

Back to the main subject -- Toas Nabbard? I think its more the case of a guy studying gong fu and making it his own.

[cheech]

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

That may be the turn-off for a lot of people here. Serious students in today's world tend to want to start out by training seriously, not enduring two or three years of "testing" first. Most serious students (rightly, I think) believe that they could really accomplish a lot with those first couple of years if they were allowed to train at the level of their passion in useful, practical concepts and ideas. The notion of students undergoing extensive examination periods is, in my own humble opinion, horribly outdated. You can accomplish the same thing by working them to death on the basics of the system in true combative form and still determine whether or not they have the right type of character and disposition to move into whatever the teacher might call "advanced." I'm not potshotting the TOAS methodology, mind you; rather, just trying to explain why a lot of people here might be put off.



This brings up another important question. Perhaps I'm unusual in thinking this way, but if one were trying to go for a good P.R. effect, wouldn't he/she want to put the best foot forward? I mean, in any other sort of advertising, the goal is to sex things up and make them look as great and wonderful as possible. You'll never see a car commerical with the new model car's right front hub cap missing and a bondo patch on the front fender. You don't see JC Penney advertising the new Spring line of fashions with tattered elbows in all the shirts. In literally ever other type of P.R. campaign, the intent is to showcase the best possible view of the product or service one can possibly muster. By your post, it's clear that TOAS chose not to do so. Why do you suppose that is? Why "hide" the "real" stuff when the ultimate goal is to sell the system for what it is?

I hear you Mike. Safakhoo and I had numerous discussions regarding those points. He was very protective of his style, and didn't want someone that was "undeserving" for various reasons to represent him. My opinion was that he should teach the "real" stuff right off the bat. He would at least speed up the program for students that showed potential. Another part of the problem was that he didn't have enough students that were advanced enough to be good instructors. I thought he started using them as instructors too soon. The rationale was that there were too many students to be able to personally train all of them himself. Also, he felt that they were learning more by having to teach also. Both were/are true, but I just felt they needed to learn more first.

I also tried to talk him into doing some of the videos and demos himself. His rationale was that his intent was to show the abilities of his students and his teaching, not what he could do. I thought it was a shame, because he was very skilled, while his students at the time had a long way to go.

Students w/ prior martial arts experience, or experience in any organized sports were different. However, I'd guess a good 95% were people who weren't used to putting in the amount of effort and dedication required. His training was in a live in school, and I don't think he was prepared for the type of students he'd be getting, or the type of teaching methods required for the "average" student. There were numerous occasions when he was ready to pull up stakes and move to a larger area.

IIRC, when I started w/ him I was about 35 and he was almost 10 years younger. Although he was very skilled, he was still learning how to teach. He also had to learn how to deal w/ a different culture. Most americans were more laid back, and I believe those individuals w/ a more obsessive personality tend to learn faster. Whereas, at the school he attended, you really had to want to be there or you were culled. Here, students just have to have the money.

Some time after leaving his school, I inadvertently started teaching in the backyard. It started w/ a guy who was my daughters first boyfriend. He was paranoid about getting picked on at school and was having a rough period emotionally, and wanted to learn how to defend himself. I offered to teach him for free, since I knew he really didn't have the money to go to a real school. Plus, I felt that he really didn't need to know how to fight, he just needed to talk and get some emotional stability. His father had recently died, and he didn't feel he could talk to his family. It got out of hand much faster than I expected. At one point there were over 30 people "training" in my backyard. I tried to put some of my personal opinions into effect. I was giving them as much and as fast as they could memorize it, working on the idea that they would pick up at least a few things faster. Didn't work worth beans. I then picked one intermediate form, the Hung Gar tiger/crane form, and focused on that. I also focused on using a modified version of Wing Chun sticky hands (chi sao) for close range sensitivity training.

During that period, I had exactly one student that met, and exceeded my expectations. Primarily because he already had 10 years of Yoshukai experience under his belt. I was really disappointed to see him leave, but the understanding was that he was only going to be there for the summer. He picked up chi sao so quickly that I added foot guiding, chi gerk and torso joining to his training and turned the chi sao into genuine close range sparring sessions. The extra bits turned out to be a little too much for a 3 month period, but he was at least able to see the effectiveness. After he left it was downhill from there. I just couldn't come up w/ effective methods of bringing the noobes along at an acceptable speed. Tried adding a little pain to the mix working under the assumption that it would provide some incentive to practice more. Just made the students too cautious. I saw very little evidence that anyone was practicing at home, other than just empty forms. It became obvious that I didn't have an effective method of teaching the average person, and didn't have a clue how to solve the problem. The point being, I developed a better understanding of the problems Safakhoo was having w/ developing effective teaching methods.

[cheech]

Originally Posted by still-learning

Cheech,
I'm pretty sure that I know you, based on some things you wrote.
Hope you are well. We did some stuff in your backyard a couple of times.
(thanks again, by the way)
I trained toas for a while myself, mostly after you had already left. Since then I have worked on some other things, but have used toas as my 'base', and still continue to practice certain things from that style.
Good to 'see' you again.

still-learning, I believe you're correct. I hope you stick to it. There's a world of things to learn. I was still doing pretty good up until a couple of years ago. I was learning capoeira and having a blast. Blew up my knee landing wrong. After the operation I went back once I could walk again, and managed to tear the meniscus in the other knee by landing and jumping one legged. Not a major problem, but lost the accuracy in the leg that was operated on. Kept tripping on the floor for a while and I'm unwilling to use any thing but stomping type kicks anymore, and at much less than full strength. Then started having problems w/ nausea, diarrhea and weight loss. The weight loss was the real killer, as I dropped a lot of muscle mass, and I didn't have that much to start w/. I'm really missing practicing and hope to start up a program again in the future.

[Mike Brewer]

Cheech, I know it's a bit of a diversion, but have you seen the thread in the JKD forum regarding Training Progress? It is a good one for getting new folks to more advanced levels. Might be worth the read, even just for academic purposes.

[still-learning]

Cheech,
..by the way, I hope you get to feeling better soon.
..and I sent you a "private message"...when you have a chance to check it...

I dunno what you are up to these days...but there are decent schools/instructors here in the Atlanta area, if you are ever up for relocation.

Next time I get back to P-cola, I'll try to get in touch with you, if I have a chance.
Peace

[cheech]

Just finished reading the thread. Very good stuff. One of the problems I had was that I didn't really want to teach. I got into martial arts because I liked the competition when I was wrestling, and I was much too old to try and do that here. Not to mention that there aren't any wrestling clubs in the area, so martial arts was the next best thing. The next problem was that I really didn't truly understand most peoples motivation. My own motivation was personal development, and to have some fun. I understood that some people were motivated from fear, some wanted to be "tough" guys and some were just curious, but very few were self motivated enough to realistically do self assessments and do whatever it took to get better. Most wanted to go through the motions while "training".

I tried to keep it as simple as possible, by only teaching hands initially, working on the assumption that most people would be reasonably coordinated w/ their hands. I taught no kicking at all. I'd demonstrate simple wing chun style foot work, and cut back to only teaching the Hung Gar tiger/crane form, which has pretty straight forward techniques w/ only a few simple kicks.

I was pretty excited to get one of Safakhoos students who had broken some guys jaw who had tried to rob her at an ATM. I thought I was getting someone who at least had the basics down. After an assessment, I realized that she was lucky she hadn't gotten hurt or killed. Made her work on simple elbow strikes to help her coordinate the arm and body motions, then after a few days added the hand and forearm. She did actually learn to perform a basic thrust punch w/ power but still needed to learn how to deliver power to a target. She didn't quite last a week. Some people just seemed to be satisfied to learn to "dance".

There seems to be quite a few people that are guilty of self-deception. I always tried to teach that they should realistically assess their strengths and weaknesses. One of Safakhoos students that started before me just doesn't seem to want to acknowledge where he's lacking. I finally ended up telling him that Safakhoo would always warn me to go easy on him when sparring, and that I'd always held back when sparring anyone. No one had every seen what I could really do. However I was always well aware that my kicking skills were inferior to the better kickers. Plus I knew there was more to learn than I could possibly absorb in my lifetime.

Anyway this one guy has been teaching his cousin for at least 10 years. Plus his cousin studied w/ Safakhoo. Periodically they'd stop by so the cousin could see how he was progressing. I'd do some light sparring w/ him and give him some tips. There was no improvement at all. The last time they stopped by, I must have been in a bad mood or something, because I just got fed up that we were still playing this game. I just walked into him completely open, tripped him and stopped everything he threw. Let him grab me by the throat w/ a "tiger claw", and ignored it as it was no threat. It took about 5 seconds to destroy his foundation. I didn't throw any kicks or hands at all, and no fancy footwork.

Afterwards I explained to him that what he was doing had no power and his foundation was weak. He countered by pointing out his "score" w/ the tiger claw. I then told him I'd ignored it because it wasn't a threat, and demonstrating by ridgehanding myself in the throat w/ force. Then I told him to grab me by the throat and choke me w/ his "tiger claw". Of course no effect either. I just couldn't understand how he'd gone so long w/o realizing that he wasn't really learning anything.

I think the "Training Progress" thread is very good for people that truly want to learn. For people that only think they want to learn, I don't know. I think a good teacher is one that can teach a person whether they want to learn or not. I don't fall into that category. I just don't understand peoples motivations or how to motivate them.

Sorry for making this so long winded.

[cheech]

I've been researching To'a/toas on the web. There's a lot more information available since the last time I looked. There's a lot to indicate that To'a/toas did originate from asian styles, but specifics are hazy. One site had videos of the empty hand forms, and they're almost 100% identical to what I was taught.http://www.international-kungfutoa.c...0Download.html
I think these forms were executed reasonably well, although I have issues w/ the forearm angles in some of the blocks.

It looks like a large number of schools have added or modified techniques, as did Safakhoo. To'a, IMO, is a good style to start w/, but there are some things missing. Most of the sites indicate that To'a is a persian style, but I see little evidence of that. It still appears to be a modified asian/chinese style w/ iranian/persian influences.

[cheech]

One last post, then I'll shut up. If you google Varzesh-e-Pahlavani you come up w/ some videos and an entry in Wikipedia which states "Pahlavani, is a traditional discipline of gymnastics and wrestling in Iran, which was originally an academy of physical training for military purposes.". Viewing the videos it's pretty obvious that the training is primarily to improve the ability to handle weapons and shields. This makes a lot of sense, as martial activities normally involve weapons, not empty handed combat. You don't normally invest a lot of time training men to fight empty handed when your enemy has weapons. Plus, you invest as little time as possible training the equivalent of "cannon fodder".

During the first 13 years of To'a/TOAS, Safakhoo didn't have a lot of respect for wrestling, and none of the Varzesh-e-Pahlavani exercises existed in his style. In fact, there was very little of any type of grappling technique in his style. In the transition from TOAS to T.O.A.S. NABARD he may in fact have incorporated some aspects of Varzesh-e-Pahlavani, but as of 3 or 4 years ago, I saw no evidence of it. Of course there's the possibility of "inner circle" stuff. But in the first 13 years I was a member of the inner circle. It just didn't exist then.

I want to apologize to any current students of TOAS if offense was taken. None was intended. I still think it's one of the better first styles to learn in this area, and I don't think it should matter one way or the other what the origins are. I do think that in order to be balanced, learning "internal" styles is desirable as well as grappling which will probably have to be learned from external sources.

[Mike Brewer]

As I suggested earlier - it may be Persian because it has a Persian founder, but in the same way that Jeet Kune Do is American because Bruce Lee was here when he created it or American Kempo is American because Ed Parker was. The roots, tools, methods, and techniques themselves don't come from here (except arguably with JKD), but it is tied to the founder's own roots due to basic cultural identity.

TOAS Nabard is very plainly and obviously an art constructed from Chinese Kung Fu pieces and parts. It may have some Persian/Iranian terminology and exercises sprinkled in, but to any moderately educated observer, the roots are indisputable.

That people would take offense to this being pointed out is a little insane to me.

[greg3361]

I’ll just say it the way it is.

Cheech you need to take stronger medication to relax a little.
From what I read it sounds like you were crying while you wrote your novel.
Maybe you need professional help.
.
With over 24 years experience in various martial arts,
I consider myself a student of martial art.
As a martial artist I realized that the most important thing
is attitude.

You have so much hate and animosity that is eating you alive.
You are speaking about a teacher who has accomplished great things and
Who has many followers some of whom has been with him for as long as
He has been in this country.

It happens to be that I have known Master Safakhoo for over 25 years…all the way back to when he couldn’t even speak English. I’ve taken his class; my children are taking his class and I have recommended everyone I’ve met to take his class because he is a man and a teacher with integrity.
He has students that have been with him for over 20 years… THAT speaks louder than
You can scream.

About you.

You very cowardly hide you identity yet unintentionally reveal yourself through your ignorance.
Over the years I have witnessed many times Safakhoo dismissing students with bad attitudes. I suspect that you are one of them.
If I’m not mistaken, judging by your family description you are a short, chain-smoking, Afro-American man named Henry
Who was expelled from the Academy.
If you are Henry, I remember many things about you and you probably remember me too. I am Greg.
I remember that none of the women liked you because you were creepy and that my mother had no respect for you after your wife confided in her that you were physically abusive to her and your children.
When my Father heard about it he wanted to take matters into his own hands luckily before this happened you were dismissed.

One thing I can say about you is that you obviously haven’t changed. You still give yourself a lot of unearned credit and you still carry bitterness and ignorance with you.
Your stories only convince bored and shallow people.

Master Safakhoo is a teacher. People want to learn from him. His life is an open book and he has nothing to hide.
It doesn’t matter what stories you make up about toa T.O.A.S. –Nabard-Iran-China-America…what is the point?
People are not as stupid as you apparently assume.

Master Safakhoo has more to offer than most. He has worked hard to be a man and teacher of integrity and has built a solid reputation. He has devoted his LIFE to creating a style through which mankind can grow. What have you done?

Move on Henry/Cheech. You never were anything and you never will be until you change your attitude…THAT is the first lesson of a martial artist.