Fighter vs. Martial Artist

[bodhisattva]

Originally Posted by Michael Wright

Bodhi,

Somewhere along the line this has all come across as personal, and thats not what I was trying to get across, although its my fault for making my posts a bit emotive. As I say, that was just a bit of a ruse to get us into this conversation.

This isn’t about me, or you, its about the forum and the many people on here who look for help and advice. I’ve bumped heads with a number of people on here who I feel add nothing but negativity and dismissal of people’s point of view, so again this isn’t personal to you. Why do I care? You’d think I have better things to do with my time! Everything in my life to do with martial arts is 100%, so when I get passionate about the forum and the people on it, that’s just the way I am. Its pretty sad really I guess but there you go.

Its not that I disagree with your point of view, we actually agree on so many things, as hard as they were to hear at first some years ago. I have no bug in my arse about you nor do I dislike you, I don’t even know you. As I say, and have said from the start, it would be great to hear some input from you and for us to learn from the benefit of your training and experience, as opposed to a lot of what you post which is pretty negative and non-contributory (if that is a word). But at the end of the day it’s a free country brother, so if that’s your way then fair enough.

Michael,

Is it all negative, or do I just not believe in Kata or Traditional Martial Arts, or packing 7 knives, a gun, and of course, the all time weapon of destruction - work boots? (yeah, i'm having fun with myself.)

It's just one of those things, Michael - I have a bug in my ass about traditional martial arts, the money I wasted there, the time I wasted on Kata working dead patterns.

As far as things being personal - I'm glad I misread you.

As far as adding things that are useful - just because something is "negative" does not make it useless. Believe me, when I was doing kata and getting my ass beat, and then returning to kata trying to have faith in my sensei and my style and my system - those were hard days.

When I started wrestling and doing MT in a jkd concepts class - those were much better days. Some of that stuff worked!

When I left the JKD versions for the MMA versions - WOW! I could teach my GRAMMA! THIS STUFF!

I was amazed.

So if you think my denial of kata, and traditional martial arts really sucks, or is useless to others - I disagree.

I found what worked by listening to people who were saying similar things as to what I say.

That's what this forum is for.

If you consider it "negative" or "non-contributory" then - dang - I wish you didn't. Honest. I like acceptance as much as the next guy, but I'm still going to speak my piece even if I find little acceptance.

But what I have to share is what I have to share? And if you don't like the Dwayne sharing, then I'm honestly sorry. Honestly.

But the Dwayne part of the sharing says "Kata sucks" and "TMA" aren't martial arts at all because they don't work in martial circumstances.

[Michael Wright]

Bodhi,

Thank for the reply.

I hear what you say, and no negativity is not a waste of time. Without the negativity there would be no debate, and without debate there would be no progress - and of course, there would be no forum.

Here is where I come out: Having trained the the SBG guys, you have some awesome concepts on how to train as a better athlete and a more alive competitor. I'd love to hear you talk about some of that for the guys on the forum, not as a put down to other arts, but as a positive contribution that people can gain from. Talk about the "I" Method, the ISR Program, S.T.A.B., Aliveness, delivery systems, the four qualities of a good fighter. I love all that stuff, other will too, why not share? I guess thats what I mean by a contribution.

Bitch on at kata, streetfighting, knifework all you like, thats your perogative. But bring us something back in return.

And let the steel toed boots thing go

[JKDBrando]

I believe Kata is useless if you are trying to become a fighter. If you just want to be in shape it can be great cardio.

However if you have never done kicks or punches before you must learn how to do them with some sort of drill like Kata. It's great for beginners and allows them to warm up to being more physical with what they have learned.

my .02

[Tant01]

(The excerpts from) This article was originally from the 1966 AAU-JBBF Judo Handbook published by the Amateur Athletic Union of the United States. This page is copyright © 1996/2003 by Neil Ohlenkamp, JudoInfo.com. All rights reserved.


Donn F. Draeger is well qualified to write about this subject. A scholar of oriental history and philosophy, he has done considerable academic and practical research on the oriental martial arts; and as a jujitsu historian, Mr. Draeger is currently engaged in kata research, including the major fighting arts of Japan. As an instructor in the Kodokan's foreign section, he has specialized in the study and teaching of Kodokan Judo kata. He is the only foreigner to have been awarded the official kata teaching licenses by Kodokan, holding licenses in six of the seven recognized kata. His knowledge and skill are attested to by the decision of the All-Japan Judo Federation to permit him to become the first foreigner to perform nage no kata (as tori) at an All-Japan National Judo Championship (1961). He was further selected by the Kodokan to be the first foreigner permitted to perform high-grade kata (uke for goshin jutsu and kime no kata) at the annual Kagami Biraki ceremony in 1963 and 1965 respectively. He was again nominated by the All-Japan Judo Federation to perform nage no kata (as tori) at the 1964 Olympiad -- the only foreigner accorded this honor.

.....Editor


Since you are expecting a "sales talk," it may be best to start with something practical about kata. Just who in the Judo world uses kata? Speaking on a top-level international basis, you should first know that there aren't any champions who cannot perform kata; all champions perform it well. While kata alone has not made them champions, the very fact that they can do it expertly means that somewhere along their long, hard training road they have employed it in their training. Their expertise with kata did not come by a process of osmosis.

In terms with which you are at least geographically familiar, few of you will disagree that the competitive style and effect of, say James Bregman is currently the most dynamic and is the best in the USA. Bregman's Judo history and contest record dates back many years; but he may be best known to you as the 1964 National AAU Middleweight champion, the 1964 Olympiad Middleweight 3rd place winner, the 1965 Maccabiah Games Middleweight champion. Having had a large share in Bregman's early years of Judo training, personally designing and directing all of his training schedules during those formative years, I can assure you that he literally "grew up" on large doses of throwing and grappling kata, the nage and katame no kata respectively.

Another national case in point lies with the current National AAU Grand Champion, Hayward Nishioka (Nanka), who also exhibits a tremendously effective and stylish Judo which is outstanding among American Judoists. Nishioka's skill with kata is also remarkable; and, together with Bregman, they were chosen by the All-Japan Judo Federation to perform nage no kata at the 1962 All-Japan National Championship - the second foreigners accorded this honor. Their splendid performance is well remembered in Japan.

Past champions in our national Judo scene include Ben Campbell (Hokka) and, further back, John Osako (Konan). Campbell will be remembered for National AAU weight titles and Pan American titles, and Osako for AAU Grand National Championships and two Pan American Grand Championships. Both of these competitors possess excellent skills with kata.

Currently aboard -- starting with World and Olympic champion Anton Geesink of the Netherlands down through such famous champions as Japan's winning Olympic trio Iasso Inokuma, I. Okano, and Nakatani, as well as Japan's three-time all-Japan champion A. Kaminaga and the currently reigning All-Japan titlist S. Sakaguchi, Canada's Douglas Rogers, and A. Kiknadze of the USSR -- all are, without exception, kata experts. As a sidenote of interest, All-Japan championships on a truly national basis began in 1948; all winners -- two of whom have been world champions -- were and are kata experts.

European past international "greats" who were and still masters with kata include France's B. Pariset and H. Courtine; Belgium's H. Outlet; and Great Britian's C. Palmer, G. Gleeson, and G. Keer.

[bodhisattva]

Sorry. I can't believe in it. You guys are great, you really are. But I see no benefit.

I will say, perhaps judo kata are more useful than the other Kata out there. I have to admit, I've seen some judo Kata, but I've never done one - even with my time in Judo.

But I have to tell you, I see no point to dead patterns. If, somehow, Judo kata do not involve dead patterns - maybe I'd change my mind.

But if it weren't a dead pattern - I'm not sure how it would be a Kata.

[bodhisattva]

Originally Posted by JKDBrando

I believe Kata is useless if you are trying to become a fighter. If you just want to be in shape it can be great cardio.

However if you have never done kicks or punches before you must learn how to do them with some sort of drill like Kata. It's great for beginners and allows them to warm up to being more physical with what they have learned.

my .02

I teach people to punch and kick with mirrors and shadowboxing, focus mitts, heavy bags, and sparring time. They learn to punch and kick quite well. I never use kata to teach those skills, and can't see why I would.

So you really dont' have to use kata to teach punches and kicks.

I don't recall getting a good cario workout from doing kata. Maybe you're not running hills 3 times a week like I am? If I didn't run hills, maybe a kata would break a sweat.

[bodhisattva]

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

I personally don't think it has to do with you stating your opinions. I think it has to do with you claiming that your opinions are blanket facts, and apply to everyone of all ages and backgrounds who decide to engage in martial arts training.

And I'm pretty sure no one is hurt for it?


---

As far as I'm concerned, Kata are not "martial" and so they are not for "martial arts training."

[bodhisattva]

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

I personally like discussing things with you because you do have strong opinions and because you're intelligent enough to put them into clear and articulate thoughts. Also because you're a complete push-over when it comes to winning a debate. Maybe if you were a little more accepting of other people's freedom of thought or the validity of someone else's experience besides your own, you wouldn't get trounced so easily?

I'm glad you like discussing things with me, Mike. Truth is, I like reading what you have to say, too. Keep in mind: I don't agree with it all - but that doesn't make me upset or go in to a fit because we don't agree.

As far as winning debates: I think it's pretty obvious I'm not trying to "win" anything. The reason is because I know a "win" isn't possible. What would I win?

Would I "win" if the whole forum, simultaneously, said "OH! NOW I GET IT! You are absolutely right, Dwayne, And we're all showing up at St. Louis Training Circle so you can show us the Way!"

No. If you agreed with me, it would be no "win."

I mean, Mike, is that what you're trying to do? Are you trying to "win" the debate? That sounds like an uncomfortable mindset to live within.

Respect people's freedom? I do. And then I post my viewpoint, too - which is my freedom.

No need for hurt feelings on anyone's end.

(and Kata are still kind of silly, not very martial, and seem fairly pointless to me.)

[bodhisattva]

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

So long as you're willing to admit that your inability to see it doesn't preclude the possibility that it is still there.

Sure. And maybe Superman exists, too. And maybe those presents, when I was a youth, were truly from Santa, and not from my parents at all.

[bodhisattva]

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

Tant, your list shows clearly that kata have had some value to several people. You've proven beyond any reasonable doubt that one cannot dismiss kata as a training method entirely, even if they themselves choose alternative methods by which to train. You've put together research from one of the world's most reliable sources ever, and you have intelligently and coherently illustrated some of the martial arts legends who have achieve measurable success using kata in their training. Now for the bad news:

I doubt it will have any impact.

This is a lot like arguing with a teenager. He / they have already decided that they know everything, and no amount of voodoo logic, facts, examples, or even plain truth are going to sway them. Simply put, it's the whole "My experience matters far more than anyone and everyone else's in the whole world" attitude, and I don't know if there's any way around that.

Heh. Yeah. I'm a lot like a teenager. Because I choose to live by own experience instead of believing others experience over mine.

(shrug)

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by bodhisattva

....
---

As far as I'm concerned, Kata are not "martial" and so they are not for "martial arts training."

You are entitled to YOUR OPINION but I see it like this>

Warriors (lets just say US Marines) shoot paper targets before they are sent into battle.

You see any value in shooting paper targets?

Kata is like a paper target... It can demonstrate the skill of the shooter.

It provides a level of confidence in the shooters ability to hit a target.

The shooter gets to familiarize him/her self with the weapon(s), calibrating for range and wind, reciol, reloading, follow up...

Kata is like that. And FUN!

[JKDBrando]

So can we add another trait to martial artist?

Tolerant

[SmallThought]

Hey guys, didn't i read something about keeping the thread on topic???

It was all very interesting until about 2 pages when it degenerated into a "whose opinion counts more" discussion. No offence, that's just the way it reads to me. Unfortunate, really, because i was enjoying the discussion re: the difference between fighters & martial artists.

If i may regress to the principle topic of the thread???

It seems to me that many of you regard a fighter only to be someone who steps into a ring. With this i do not entirely agree. This post is already getting long winded so i'll just state in point form my opinion on the title topic.

1/ Fighter: someone who either likes to, or tends to engage in hand to hand or close rage weapon combat. This person may or may not be trained, may or may not get into a ring, may or may not be intelligent, may or maynot be upwardly mobile in a socio-economic sense; they just fight and are generally as good at it as their experience and ability to pick their battles allows.

2/ Martial Artist:This person is trained to a greater or lesser degree, may or may not get into a ring, may or may not be intelligent, may or may not be upwardly mobile in a socio-economic sense; they do, however, dedicate themselve to studying the mechanics of fighting by contiuously training one or more systems of "martial (1. of, pertaining to or suggesting war) art (1. human effort to imitate, supplement, alter or counteract the work of nature). This person's goal in training is to understand combat in order to either become more proficient in it or to be able to recognise signs of it immanence in order to avoid it.

3/ Warrior: (according to my dictionary is) 1. one who is engaed or experienced in armed combat.In todays society, most warriors only need to be able to fire a gun (or operate some other mechanical weapon) and find suitable cover from behind which to do so in order to survive the combat; although they are trained to a greater or lesser degree in hand to hand combat, most (and i say MOST, not all) "armed combat" is contucted with long range weapons (guns, bombs, missiles).

To me, people involved with "martial arts" can be all, either, or none of the above.

Just my take on the question and i'll be interested to see this thread return to topic if anyone has further input.

Have fun, peoples.

[SmallThought]

Oh yeah... i've got to agree that "warriors" (if being defined as a soldier in an armed force) do need to drill all that seemingly superfluous stuff in order to operate as a cohesive unit. I would also submit that, in order to be a "martial artist", while one must strip away what is superfluous and inefficient; one must also have a set of "routines" in order to develop focus, control, body awareness, co-ordination, discipline and perserverance. I believe that forms and kata are a good vehicle for this aspect of training. If you do not incorporate such training into your regimen you may fit into either the "fighter" or the "neither" category.

If you train martial arts purely for fitness and never "touch hands" or learn combat applications of the movements contained within a form or kata, you fit into the "neither" category. I must state at this point that i do not consider ring fighting or any tournament applications to be true combat training, although it does help train ones ability to function under physical duress. Whenever the combat aspect is removed from a martial art, is ceases to be of, pertaining to or suggesting war and is therefore no longer a "MARTIAL" art.

Again, just my take on it.

Ciao

[Michael Wright]

My answer to the thread was short, specific and black & white – because its a question that is open to a massive amount of subjective interpretation. I think most people seem to come from a similar point of view on the martial artist front, its the concept of a “fighter” that is dividing people.

This word can go far and wide, way outside of martial arts or even anything to do with the physical. A member of my family raised 10 kids in one of the roughest parts of the UK, lived for years through abuse, and battled cancer for over 10 years, beating it 3 times. I know many people would refer to this person as a “fighter”. A good friend of mine has never done a stitch of competition in his life, but over many years of serious bouncing he was involved in hundreds of violent encounters, many people refer to him as a “fighter”. And most of the men through the history of my family have served in the Forces, mostly the Royal Marines or the Parachute Regiment seeing active duty in The Falklands War. Once again, many would argue that these are “fighters”.

For me, I see the word Fighter as a specific doing word, which describes the active life of that person – in the same way that Soldier, Bouncer, or Mother does. If you called my friend who worked the doors a fighter he will be the first to tell you that he wasn’t fighting, he was just doing his job. Thats also a very common response from a Soldier. To me, without getting into a whole world of maybes, to be classed as a Fighter – you fight. Now I appreciate that in martial arts there are millions of people about whom you hear “well he doesn’t compete, but I wouldn’t want to get on the wrong side of him, he’s a fighter”. Sure, I know lots of people like that who don’t compete but, if it came down to it, could certainly play the game. But I don’t call those people fighters. There are a million guys in this country who will tell you they are “footballers”. What they mean is that they go down to watch all the games over a few pints, and every once in a while they get together for a kick about on the park. They are certainly involved in football, they are football fans, but they most certainly aren’t footballers. I see a lot of that in martial arts.

So yes, in order to solidify my point of view, I classed fighters as those people who actively compete in a combat sport or a competitive martial art. I know some people have said on the thread that this isn’t fighting - its playing. I understand what you mean because its a sport, with rules and its not life or death. But thats a very easy thing to say when you are stood on the sidelines. Get in the ring at any kind of level in Thai or Boxing, come out and tell me you didn’t just have a fight. The Amateur Boxers at my gym are in the ring fighting every other weekend, thats what I class as a fighter. The Pros at the gym spend 6 days a week from 5AM to 6PM training for their next fight, which they are relying on to pay their bills – I class them as fighters. Guys who live and train in Thailand and can often fight twice in a night just to feed their families, again definitely fighters. I could go on and on but yes, for me, to be classed as a fighter you fight, you compete, you step into the arena and go up against another person to beat them.

Of course, I know lots of people in martial arts say that they fight all the time, but not in the ring, on the street. In my experience, the vast majority of those people are full of shit. They know that you can’t disprove them and you only have their word. Thats why I personally respect ring fighters – its there for all to see. There are no myths, no lies, no hocus pocus. Its honest and its true, thats why I class it as fighting.