MMA is Not Self Defense!

[kingoftheforest]

Well like I said personal experiences will vary from people to people. If those are your and that's what you got out of it by no means am I attempting to change your mind.

But I do have to site that Alex Gong didn't have the mentality that I have but the mentality that you yourself have sited and he was shot while chasing down someone who stole his car from in front of his gym. Instead of calling the police he ran after the thief and confronted him only to meet his end facing the barrel of a gun. ALEX GONG

I don't mean to be rude when I say this but I don't think Alex was that much of a straw dummy.

[migo]

Fair point on Gong. I'd forgotten about him. It's difficult to talk about his mentality since he's dead and we can't ask him.

However, the same could be said for someone with a mentality like yours who decides to fight against a mugging (because you don't want to give in and then get killed, typical mentality I see on RBSD boards), and ends up getting shot by one of his buddies. For all we know it has happened, but it's less likely to make the news as an RBSD personality is no where near the same level of the celebrity heirarchy as Alex Gong was.

[kingoftheforest]

Originally Posted by migo

Fair point on Gong. I'd forgotten about him. It's difficult to talk about his mentality since he's dead and we can't ask him.

However, the same could be said for someone with a mentality like yours who decides to fight against a mugging (because you don't want to give in and then get killed, typical mentality I see on RBSD boards), and ends up getting shot by one of his buddies. For all we know it has happened, but it's less likely to make the news as an RBSD personality is no where near the same level of the celebrity heirarchy as Alex Gong was.

Try looking up Carl Cestari (who just recently died of old age) or Bob Kasper who past a while ago of Old age. You could also argue that James Keating is but I'll admit that might be pushing it.

Of course none of these guys saw fighting as a sport but as an instinct bred into humans for survival or battle field combat so of course their celebrity isn't that huge because they don't just go around picking fights, or agreeing to them for money or titles.

Also try looking up Lee Murray Lee Murray Stabbed In Critical Condition - SubFighter.com. He was also in a bit of trouble for some B&E.

For all the RBSD people I have encountered it's about being able to defend yourself when necessary and only then. Avoidance is the key to that. I started a thread awhile ago on here about that same subject. I'll see if I can find it and post a link.

KOTF

[TTEscrima]

Originally Posted by migo

Fair point on Gong. I'd forgotten about him. It's difficult to talk about his mentality since he's dead and we can't ask him.

Actions speak louder than words, Alex's actions and mindset are what got him killed, you don't need an interview, the facts speak for themselves.

Originally Posted by migo

However, the same could be said for someone with a mentality like yours who decides to fight against a mugging (because you don't want to give in and then get killed, typical mentality I see on RBSD boards), and ends up getting shot by one of his buddies. For all we know it has happened, but it's less likely to make the news as an RBSD personality is no where near the same level of the celebrity heirarchy as Alex Gong was.

Now you're making shit up and grasping at straws, there are plenty of high profile RBSD guys, two of them died in the last 6 months.















Of old age.

I'm not looking to get drawn into a shitting contest here but I think I'll share a lesson I was taught by an old Master Chief at my first duty station working base security.

We often had fights on base and in base housing and the winner usually didn't stick around so we had to search for them, to aid in that we had a list of the Usual Suspects which hung on the wall.

If it happened in base housing it was a "cassanova" these guys can get laid so they're out doing so instead of hanging in the gym. Look for the pissed off husbands and boyfriends. Side note these guys are also often Dojo Darlings who fold up the first time they get hit, so don't bother looking for the winners in the TMA clubs.

If it happened in the club and no one saw it, check the Judo club.

If it happened in the barracks or the club and witnesses reported a quick KO from out of nowhere then check the boxing club.

If it happened in the mess hall check the wrestling club, find the injured wrestler they almost always hurt themselves on the inanimate objects and the hard floors.

This list proved especially helpful when hunting the trouble makers on board the ship where long hours working and living around the people you work with causes friction.

My 20 years as a Master At Arms taught me that people who view fighting as a sport (a game) tend to get into them more often than the people who view fighting as self defense. People who train with weapons typically think fighting includes these things and as such tend to avoid them far more often than people who view fighting as a sport.

[kingoftheforest]

I'd also like to point out that MMA was designed for arenas like UFC and not originally for the street or SD. RBSD is for just that Self Defense while some people may use it for aggressive purposes that's just being a thug not an RBSD guy.

Defense means you did not start the fight. It means that there is an aggressor attacking you or a person you feel is in your care and you are defending yourself/them against the aggressor. Do people screw the pooch on this concept? Most likely yes.

MMA could be used for self defense but a frying pan can be used as a weapon too. Would I think a frying pan is the best weapon I could carry to defend myself. Hell no! So if I had to choose between using a frying pan or a knife I choose the knife.

MMA wasn't designed for defense once again but for the ring. When you step into the ring it's not a question of weather or not your going to have to fight. You know without a doubt that you are going to fight someone. There is no avoiding it, there is no talking your way out of the situation, you have trained for one thing and that is to be an aggressor in the ring.

I don't know about other RBSD schools but here we train to attempt to avoid fights at all cost through whatever social engineering or avoidance techniques we can train for or think of. That's the difference I see in the two mind sets.
I have trained on both sides MMA and RBSD these are just my personal experiences and I am in no way attempting to say that anyone else's are any less valid. I'd just like to put what's on my mind out there.

Migo you present your thoughts and experiences in a respectful and direct manner and back them up with logical thought. That's very refreshing here compared to the way some people just say whatever and

..............................................

Thanks for the opportunity to view things from another angle. It always helps to see a different P.O.V.. Stimulates thought and helps me to understand things in my head a little better.

Sometimes it's hard to pull back and look at things subjectively.

KOTF

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

Originally Posted by kingoftheforest

I'd also like to point out that MMA was designed for arenas like UFC and not originally for the street or SD. RBSD is for just that Self Defense while some people may use it for aggressive purposes that's just being a thug not an RBSD guy.

Defense means you did not start the fight. It means that there is an aggressor attacking you or a person you feel is in your care and you are defending yourself/them against the aggressor. Do people screw the pooch on this concept? Most likely yes.

MMA could be used for self defense but a frying pan can be used as a weapon too. Would I think a frying pan is the best weapon I could carry to defend myself. Hell no! So if I had to choose between using a frying pan or a knife I choose the knife.

MMA wasn't designed for defense once again but for the ring. When you step into the ring it's not a question of weather or not your going to have to fight. You know without a doubt that you are going to fight someone. There is no avoiding it, there is no talking your way out of the situation, you have trained for one thing and that is to be an aggressor in the ring.

I don't know about other RBSD schools but here we train to attempt to avoid fights at all cost through whatever social engineering or avoidance techniques we can train for or think of. That's the difference I see in the two mind sets.
I have trained on both sides MMA and RBSD these are just my personal experiences and I am in no way attempting to say that anyone else's are any less valid. I'd just like to put what's on my mind out there.

Migo you present your thoughts and experiences in a respectful and direct manner and back them up with logical thought. That's very refreshing here compared to the way some people just say whatever and

..............................................

Thanks for the opportunity to view things from another angle. It always helps to see a different P.O.V.. Stimulates thought and helps me to understand things in my head a little better.

Sometimes it's hard to pull back and look at things subjectively.

KOTF

What Martial Arts do you currently train in?

[Mike Brewer]

Here we go 'round the mulberry bush...

I'd close this, but it's just so damned entertaining!

[Garland]

Originally Posted by TTEscrima

My 20 years as a Master At Arms taught me that people who view fighting as a sport (a game) tend to get into them more often than the people who view fighting as self defense. People who train with weapons typically think fighting includes these things and as such tend to avoid them far more often than people who view fighting as a sport.

I think that's probably the smartest thing anyone has said in this goofy assed post so far...because I think that it is the main distinction. Putting megalomaniacal, ego-inflated sport fighters aside...training sport fighting (i.e. boxing, judo, jiu jitsu, etc etc etc) DOES add more (high percentage) tools to your arsenal, helps you prepare physically and mentally for the realities of a fight.

Self Defense people ("self defense" is probably a misnomer) sometimes train full contact, and sometimes can prepare their adherents to the realities of ACTUAL combat...but for the most part they are blow hard arm-chair warriors just spouting out their personal philosophies.

Somewhere in between is probably a nugget of golden truth.

[TTEscrima]

Originally Posted by Garland

I think that's probably the smartest thing anyone has said in this goofy assed post so far...because I think that it is the main distinction. Putting megalomaniacal, ego-inflated sport fighters aside...training sport fighting (i.e. boxing, judo, jiu jitsu, etc etc etc) DOES add more (high percentage) tools to your arsenal, helps you prepare physically and mentally for the realities of a fight.

Self Defense people ("self defense" is probably a misnomer) sometimes train full contact, and sometimes can prepare their adherents to the realities of ACTUAL combat...but for the most part they are blow hard arm-chair warriors just spouting out their personal philosophies.

Somewhere in between is probably a nugget of golden truth.

It's for damn sure that the large majority of RBSD/SD Guru's ain't ever been slapped by a chick much less been in a fight. On the other hand while I know it's in vogue to call the contests that happen in sporting events ring wars or call the athletes warriors, what happens in a ring isn't a fight, its a contest with rules, fights don't have rules. Any contest or fight that occurs that pits a ring seasoned fighter against a fighter from any system including combatives who has never been hit is going to go to the ring fighter. I don't have a problem with training in MMA, I have a problem with people who dismiss everything else that isn't MMA or can't be practiced in a ring. It's about the number of tools in the toolbox and leaving anything out shows a lack of common sense and supreme arrogance as well as an inability to comprehend reality.

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

Just because an art like Muay thai for example has been refined due to its competitors trying to be the best doesnt make its techniques any weaker or more unrealistic for the street. I take learning a proper right cross proper knee strike any day over learning a 'death touch'. A proper punch, proper kick, proper elbow, proper knee can always be aimed at the groin or eyes anyway. Sparring IS required to become efficient in these techniques. You cant spend most of your training doing breathing exercises, punching the air in slow motion, and thinking youll just be able to use a weapon to kill the guy youre fighting... and expect to be able to handle yourself in a fight

[Mike Brewer]

I can't even believe I'm chiming in on this monkeyfest again.

I think what TTEscrima is saying is that while some of the tools may be absolutely fine for self-protection, they're not a complete approach all by themselves. Of course reality-based training methods are still going to throw round kicks, for example, but the approach to the training and what it is used for will be different for an athlete than it would for a person concerned with non-sportive fighting. A kick in the ring may not be any different from a kick in the street from a technical point of view, but the target might change and the folloow-up options might be different. You might not choose to gouge an eyeball and headbutt the guy or hack him in the throat in the ring, but those might be perfectly valid options in a streetfight. You might prepare yourself differently (such as carrying and training with a weapon) for street encounters, and you should! That's why I've said since the beginning that MMA methods and techniques make a good supplement to overall training. MMA rules look a lot like many people's limited full contact sparring matches. If you did what MMA guys do and then added in other elements like weapons and random attackers, groups, varying circumstances, etc., MMA might make a good foundation - but it wouldn't be the whole art. For a full-fledged fighting method, you need to address all aspects of the total range of variables. That means weapons, groups, and the other stuff sports don't allow.

That said, I still think an average person with several years of MMA training and experience would likely never NEED anything more. Most people just don't ever see or get into life and death streetfights.

[migo]

Originally Posted by kingoftheforest

I'd also like to point out that MMA was designed for arenas like UFC and not originally for the street or SD. RBSD is for just that Self Defense while some people may use it for aggressive purposes that's just being a thug not an RBSD guy.

Defense means you did not start the fight. It means that there is an aggressor attacking you or a person you feel is in your care and you are defending yourself/them against the aggressor. Do people screw the pooch on this concept? Most likely yes.

I see a lot of RBSD folks really emphasising pre-emptive attacks. That doesn't strike me as defense, but enough of them are in the RBSD community that you can't say they're not RBSD.

MMA wasn't designed for defense once again but for the ring.

A) MMA wasn't designed, it happened
B) It's for fighting a trained opponent, the ring aspect is irrelevant. Dojo/gym matches where a lot of the characteristics you mentioned in ring fights aren't present are completely within the scope of MMA

When you step into the ring it's not a question of weather or not your going to have to fight. You know without a doubt that you are going to fight someone. There is no avoiding it, there is no talking your way out of the situation, you have trained for one thing and that is to be an aggressor in the ring.

You're wrong about the one thing part. MMA fighters don't train purely for one thing. Not as a definable characteristic anyway. There may be some who are like that, but that's not something you can describe MMA with.

I don't know about other RBSD schools but here we train to attempt to avoid fights at all cost through whatever social engineering or avoidance techniques we can train for or think of. That's the difference I see in the two mind sets.

I don't need an RBSD school to teach me that. My mother's 57 years old and hasn't been in a single fight. My grandmother's in her nineties and fled Holland for Switzerland, and had to get past German bordar patrols with a fake passport, she hasn't been in a single fight either. Outside of school, the gym, and competition, I haven't had a single fight. I just don't get in them. I didn't need to do anything special to learn how to not get into fights. You're spending time on something anyone can do instinctively, as long as they're not a hot-head. It's not a question of mindset when you train. MMA fighters don't get into fights because they train MMA. Those who do got into MMA because they like to fight, so it's not something that's created or determined by the training. You'll also have a hard time convincing me that the de-escalation drills and training you do have anything to do with you avoiding fights, as I know plenty of people who don't give it a second thought who are complete pros at not getting in fights. I could refer you to a full floor of girls from my dorm in university who haven't been in fights.

I have trained on both sides MMA and RBSD these are just my personal experiences and I am in no way attempting to say that anyone else's are any less valid. I'd just like to put what's on my mind out there.

I have quite the opposite experience. When I was flirting with RBSD (Senshido and Marc MacYoung), I was starting to apply the awareness and pre-empting principles that they talked about. I started becoming nervous and jumpy, and just on the edge of fighting. The closest I've ever been to getting into fights was when I was in the RBSD mindset and worrying that anyone might be wanting to attack me. I also started laughing when I realised guys who bragged about having hundreds of streetfights were the ones trying to tell me what did and didn't work in terms of avoiding fights. I clearly don't want to learn fight avoidance from someone who's had 200 of them.

Migo you present your thoughts and experiences in a respectful and direct manner and back them up with logical thought. That's very refreshing here compared to the way some people just say whatever and

..............................................

Heh. Yes. I was thinking the same thing about you. You bring up some good points that make me step back and re-evaluate whether my original stance was correct. I like that.

[migo]

TTE: That's quite fascinating that you could peg what training background they had based on where they got in fights. Do you have any insight into what influenced that?

[kingoftheforest]

Originally Posted by migo

I see a lot of RBSD folks really emphasising pre-emptive attacks. That doesn't strike me as defense, but enough of them are in the RBSD community that you can't say they're not RBSD

.

Like I said different experiences. I have yet to be trained by an RBSD teacher who advocates preemptive attacks. If that's been your experience then hey you find crappy schools in all arts.

Originally Posted by migo

A) MMA wasn't designed, it happened
B) It's for fighting a trained opponent, the ring aspect is irrelevant. Dojo/gym matches where a lot of the characteristics you mentioned in ring fights aren't present are completely within the scope of MMA

.

Sorry with everything I have read or been told MMA didn't really congeal or gain that term until UFC. Before I always heard of it as cross training. I'll have to do a little more in depth research on that. But even in dojo and ring matches there are rules. That is the only aspect that separates it from the street. That and the fact that you can't stop a street fight while everybody changes costumes.

Originally Posted by migo

You're wrong about the one thing part. MMA fighters don't train purely for one thing. Not as a definable characteristic anyway. There may be some who are like that, but that's not something you can describe MMA with.

Sorry I think you may have misunderstood. The one thing I was referring to was the actual fight. When you get in a ring no matter what styles or skills each fighter brings he knows there is going to be a fight.

Originally Posted by migo

I don't need an RBSD school to teach me that. My mother's 57 years old and hasn't been in a single fight. My grandmother's in her nineties and fled Holland for Switzerland, and had to get past German bordar patrols with a fake passport, she hasn't been in a single fight either. Outside of school, the gym, and competition, I haven't had a single fight. I just don't get in them. I didn't need to do anything special to learn how to not get into fights. You're spending time on something anyone can do instinctively, as long as they're not a hot-head. It's not a question of mindset when you train. MMA fighters don't get into fights because they train MMA. Those who do got into MMA because they like to fight, so it's not something that's created or determined by the training. You'll also have a hard time convincing me that the de-escalation drills and training you do have anything to do with you avoiding fights, as I know plenty of people who don't give it a second thought who are complete pros at not getting in fights. I could refer you to a full floor of girls from my dorm in university who haven't been in fights.

Can't disagree with that. Everyone can avoid fights, but didn't you just say there are people out there who will attack you just for the hell of it too. They are few and far between and I have only been in a few fights outside of anything to do with jobs I had doing security myself. But I have seen some people who lock up and have no clue what to do when some asshole starts screaming at them so not everybody can do that instinctively. It's good to train things you already know to get better at them. Everyone knows how to run but there are still people who train at it.

Originally Posted by migo

I have quite the opposite experience. When I was flirting with RBSD (Senshido and Marc MacYoung), I was starting to apply the awareness and pre-empting principles that they talked about. I started becoming nervous and jumpy, and just on the edge of fighting. The closest I've ever been to getting into fights was when I was in the RBSD mindset and worrying that anyone might be wanting to attack me. I also started laughing when I realised guys who bragged about having hundreds of streetfights were the ones trying to tell me what did and didn't work in terms of avoiding fights. I clearly don't want to learn fight avoidance from someone who's had 200 of them.

Paranoia is a terrible thing and you can easily trick your mind into it. Tom Yum (no offense bro) posted a perfect example of it. He was hyped up and ready to thrown down on a bum getting talking to himself on the bus. Bums who ride the bus are nuts they're gonna talk to themselves who the hell else is gonna? I go to work and Wal-Mart to the movies and all kinds of places. I have yet to get into a fight. If I think something may be a problem I just avoid it all together, I don't reach for my knife or begin checking for the exits. I don't start having breathing problems or sweating. If someone starts yelling at me I tend to ignore them but keep them in my peripheral vision. If they approach me I ask "Can I help you Sir/Ma'am?"

If the training you received caused you to be paranoid I can't really psycho analyze that on a forum but I don't seem to have that problem in my daily life.

As for idiots who claim to have been in hundreds of street fights. Usually the ones voicing their great conquests are the ones who are full of shit. If anyone had been in hundreds of street fights unless they were military in an occupied zone (which counts as combat to me) or an L.E.O. then they would be behind bars plain and simple. You don't get into that many street fights without law enforcement seeing you as a nuisance or instigator.

Originally Posted by migo

Heh. Yes. I was thinking the same thing about you. You bring up some good points that make me step back and re-evaluate whether my original stance was correct. I like that.

Like I said earlier and Mr. Brewer here voiced also. I am not saying MMA is useless and may be what some people choose to use for SD. In my opinion I just don't think it's the best set of tools for me. I'm not into trophies or fighting for no reason so the ring appeal doesn't grab my attention. I spent some time doing it and moved on. This is just my opinion and I appreciate that we can respect each others' rights to those. Thank you again Migo this is the first time I can say that one of these threads didn't turn into a pissing contest. Thanks for the input everyone. Rereading this and processing all the sides and views so far will be a real treat.

Mike great post too you really put things is a better light instead of the usual crap flinging contest these degrade into. Your post have given me a lot to think on as well.

KOTF

[Mike Brewer]

KOTF, for what it's worth, you're right where you ought to be:

In my opinion I just don't think it's the best set of tools for me.

That one sentence covers the whole damned debate. We should do what works well for us. If that means I'm out there fending off muggers with a fire extinguisher and a flip flop, so be it. No one on the internet can sit in front of their computer screens and tell everyone else what will or won't work for them. There's validity in every approach, given the right person, right opponent, and right circumstances. Sometimes we get so caught up in how great we think our own arts are that "different" immediately means "worse." That's just not the case. The fact is, even within a given style or method, you find innumerable differences. Tito Ortiz does not fight like Anderson Silva, who does not fight like Genki Sudo, who does not fight like Quinton Jackson. We've all said it before - the man makes the fight, not the style. All those guys are "MMA fighters." But each of them is a distinct human being that moves, acts, thinks, and fights differently.

I've found myself in some damned odd positions in real fights, and I can't explain sometimes why what I did made sense. But you know, here I am, typing away. No life altering injuries, no vital perforations, and no real noticeable brain damage. So as dumb as it might have seemed to some, it obviously was at least as effective as I needed it to be at the time, right? At the end of the day, this stuff really is more about what we like to do than what we're ever going to need. Fights that require life and death skills just aren't very common. Life is far better spent working on the things you truly love to do, I think, than worrying about what fatigue-wearing, tactical everything badasses on the net think you ought ot be doing.

Do what you like. Play around with different stuff. In the end, do what you know works best for you and stay open to new options. If everybody played by that rule, we wouldn't have this fucking MMA vs Every-Other-Goddamned-Thing Jihad all the time.