MMA is Not Self Defense!

[Mike Brewer]

Thanks for backing me up Mike.

You're welcome!

I tried to equate it to something a few of you might have had experience with, sex.

Well there's you're problem, right there! I only ever had one piece of tail in my whole livin' life, and being the marksman that I am, that nice tight shot group ended up a son! Ain't been laid since.

And for the record, I'm not defensive at all. This is a common discussion following a common script. I don't really see any need for any of us to be worked up about it. Discussion is what we're all here for, right?

Look at it this way, though, if for no other reason than the sake of academic debate.

MOST of the fights you'll ever see or be a part of in your day to day life are the sorts of unserious affairs that do not require a great deal of lethality. In those cases, boxing skills, wrestling ability, MMA chokes, and things of that sort are plenty. I've been in lots and lots and lots of fights in my lifetime, and only maybe a dozen of them involved weapons of any kind (firearms, impact, or edged). A higher percentage involved groups, to be sure, but I nearly always had a group of my own, so the odds were definitely in my favor. So even in my own life, where I exercised piss poor judgement and accepted jobs where my own hands were tied by excessively stringent rules of engagement, I've only had to deal with the "worst case" scenario a handful of times. The rest of them - easily passing the 90% mark - were settled using old-fashioned sport-style chokes or jabs/crosses ot the nose. I added an occasional elbow, knee, headbutt et al in for my own edification, but I feel confident in saying that I was coming to most "fights" way over prepared.

The simple fact is, most fights are just scuffles. And since most fights never reach the realm of lethality, it truly makes sense to have some training methods and tactics that are better suited to "scuffles" than eye gouges and lung punctures.

It's this statement, I think, that causes confusion among many:

nothing except the real thing will ever truly prepare you for the event, until people can admit that they aren't being honest with themselves or their students.

To me, this doesn't explain how you're training. it doesn't shed any light on the alternatives. It doesn't tell us anything except that sports are no good for reality. That leaves room for a very justified question:

What methods are you suggesting people train with? Reality itself? Does that mean that training is no good? I'm really not being nitpicky, I'm just having trouble seeing what kind of a progression you are using in your own training if you go right from learning the techniques to using them in real life. Can you please clarify what kind (if any) of sparring you do? Or maybe describe the kinds of drills and methods you might use to build skill that exceed the things sparring and sports like boxing, wrestling, MMA, etc. provide.

No one is saying you're wrong, TT. At least, I'm not. I think you have a very valid point. I'd just like to see it explained in greater detail so that you're telling us how the weaknesses of all these sports are fixed, for example, by the way you do things.

On the surface, it's very difficult for me to understand, because I have been a soldier, a martial artist, and a trainer. I know that before I had my first serious fight, all I'd done was trained. "Training" by definition is not reality. So by the way I read your logic, I should not have been prepared. But I'm here, same and sound, despite my lack of preparedness and experience. Likewise, the first time I ever faced a knife, all I'd ever done was spar with them, one on one, in controlled and mutually agreed conditions. That's not reality, but it seems to have prepared me well. First time someone fired shots at me in anger, it was kind of the same deal. I had never been in that situation before, and all I had to go on were mock ups and drills. No perforations...I must have been at least somehow prepared by the methods I was using, even though they were far from "reality." And since the vast majority of soldiers who come home safe after their first firefight have also never been exposed to "reality," something short of reality has to be working.

Once again, this is not defensiveness. It's just discussion. It happens to be a discussion that comes up a lot, and since we know you have a lot of solid life experience upon which your opinions are based, I think we're just looking for the alternatives.

Much appreciated.

[Garland]

Brewer....did you really just use "et al" in an arguement?


Kudos to THAT shit!
I don't ever see that except in citing multiple authors in APA. Jesus H. Christ. When you going to throw out ad hoc, a priori, quid pro quo and all the others?

[Mike Brewer]

TT,
I read back over your post, and I couldn't resist adding:

My first response is what the hell do multiple opponents or guns have to do with MMA?

Nothing.

Not a damn thing except they're against the rules so you just agreed with me that MMA doesn't prepare you for them.

Right.

And you can't deny they are a realistic expectation in a self defense situation.

Can't and wouldn't.

None of that was ever in dispute. The point many of us are trying (apprently without any success at all) to make is that while it's a good and prudent thing to expect and prepare for multiple attackers and guns and knives and H-Bombs, more often than not, it's just you and some punkass drunk or some random idiot with ruffled feathers, posturing to look good in front of his girl/friends/whatever. There are a lot more times when self-defense is a matter of minimal force than there are when it's lethal. In those situations...the majority of them...the tools and methods of martial sports have a lot of merit.

Besides: They're a lot of fun!

Okay, sorry. Back to the question I asked before, which was:

If sparring, sports, and other forms of "mutally agreed competitive play-fighting" are incapable of preparing one for reality, then how do you go about preparing people for reality?

Certainly you aren't suggesting that they go get in gun fights to learn about guns, knife fights to learn about knives, and mass brawls to learn about mass attack, are you?

[Mike Brewer]

Originally Posted by Garland

Brewer....did you really just use "et al" in an arguement?


Kudos to THAT shit!
I don't ever see that except in citing multiple authors in APA. Jesus H. Christ. When you going to throw out ad hoc, a priori, quid pro quo and all the others?

When we get to logical fallacies. If you look back a ways, you'll probably see I've done it several times in the past already.

[Garland]

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

Many, many folks are familiar with the basics of boxing and wrestling, and that's becomeing more predominant in the 20-something, easily provoked, can't-hold-their-liquor crowd that you're most likely to have problems with in your average every day life. I've never, ever had a fight or a scuffle with a trained Kung Fu master. I have, however, had a whole shitload of them with amped up UFC fans who've had too much to drink.

That made me think of something spooky. Maybe the uber-badasses we all commonly cite as being top tier teachers and fighters in their day were at one point in time easily provoked 20-somethings. Can you even imagine being a bouncer or just some poor schmuck in a bar trying to deal with an out of control Paul Vunak or Frank Cucci?...The people that post here would be scary as hell enough as they are to have a bad encounter with.

What about a Mike Brewer, Michael Wright, Demi Barbido, Ray Floro, Guro Raf...?

There would be no way to tell. It wouldn't be like some ego inflated boxer or MMAer you'd be able to tell on sight with an entourage, but just some average-joe. You guys are a bunch of wolves in sheep's clothing.

Is there any good way to tell if somebody is on that level, or is it like stepping into a bear trap. I want to know what cues YOU guys give off before a fight. This may be an interesting case study.

[TTEscrima]

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

Certainly you aren't suggesting that they go get in gun fights to learn about guns, knife fights to learn about knives, and mass brawls to learn about mass attack, are you?

Somehow I'm certain Ron Jeremy knows more about sex than every virgin on the planet no matter how many of Ron's films they've studied while fantasizing about what they'd do in a similar situation. So yes I'm saying the actual event is far superior than all the ways of attempting to simulate them. Does it help to have ridden a go cart around the track before driving a car for the first time? Sure, but it is still inferior to actually driving on the roads with other vehicles and drivers who have different capabilities and destinations. Even after training no one knows how they will react in an actual crisis until they have experienced it, there is a reason veterans don't trust new recruits until they've proven themselves under fire. All the live fire drills in the world don't prepare you for the realization that this time you get it right or die.
You can do PLF's off a tower all day but until you actually jump out of an aircraft you don't have any idea what it's really like. Training is great, even essential in some cases but it's never a substitute for the real thing. Think of practicing CPR, no matter how many times you've practiced on a dummy, put your wife on floor in distress and I assure you will wish you had actually done it for real before and would gladly get the hell out of the way if someone who had showed up, Training is great but NO art or sport can ever duplicate the emotion component that kicks in when death is the likely outcome if you fail. Self defense is the by product of all the work and experience you garner and you can't get that in a classroom or a ring or a dojo.

[TTEscrima]

Originally Posted by Garland

Is there any good way to tell if somebody is on that level, or is it like stepping into a bear trap. I want to know what cues YOU guys give off before a fight. This may be an interesting case study.

You're trying to find the gray man, he won't be wearing his school shirt, he won't puff up or glare at you, he won't advertise at all, he will simply do what is needed to survive and leave as quietly as he arrived. It's the things they aren't doing that warn you of trouble.

[Mike Brewer]

So yes I'm saying the actual event is far superior than all the ways of attempting to simulate them.

Okay. I'll agree to a certain extent that the actual event conditions you to what's going on, but I'd say unequivocably that I'd rather have a totally unproven E-6 straight out of Airborne, Ranger School and the SF Q-Course on my side than Joe Shit the Cherry 18 year old E-Nothing who sat through his two real firefights tucked into a little ball behind the humvee.

Training does make a difference. There are a lot of guys who have been through the reality of a life and death situation and survived on blind, random luck. The event itself does little to prepare anyone. In fact, I would argue that if you're in the middle of a real event - preparation is over. There's a reason the military (and everybody else) puts a premium on finding and using the best training methods possible, wouldn't you say? And there's a reason those same units don't just hustle everyone out of the recruit depot into combat before training them. It's because those folks will be better prepared after training than before it. So obviously training has a very important place, yes?

More importantly, it can be the one and only difference between a soldier who faces reality and comes out dead and one who faces it and comes out better.

And with all due respect...

You still haven't suggested how you'd do it any different.


As for Garland, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to leave you out.

I've spent the last maybe ten years trying to become wallpaper in a room. I've gotten a lot farther by being the completely underestimated, totally dismissed Anyman than I ever did by walking in and being the obvious threat. TTEscrima is dead nuts on in his assessment on this one.

[TTEscrima]

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

You still haven't suggested how you'd do it any different.

Never once did I bash any of the training from TMA or MMA as useless, I practice both, but MMA is NOT SD which was the thread title, I agreed and said neither are the TMA's. There is no perfect system, never was, never will be. I shot many a paper target, hunted live animals, used several types of sim ammo and participated in live fire drills, none of it prepared me for the first time I had live ammo and a live human in my sights. Keep in mind the British army was highly trained, had seen combat all over the world and was greatly feared when they met up with an untrained, under supplied and untested militia who used unfamiliar tactics to spank them. Thinking outside the box is superior to using the basics you're taught in any school, you have to make those concepts your own and that can't be taught it can only be learned from experience.

Wouldn't you say it was true that the tactics taught in school are never the ones used on the front lines because experience has taught the veterans the flaws in their schooling that will get you killed in the real world? In the Navy the saying goes, "that might be how they taught you to do it in school but that ain't the way it's done in the Fleet".

[Mike Brewer]

Keep in mind the British army was highly trained, had seen combat all over the world and was greatly feared when they met up with an untrained, under supplied and untested militia who used unfamiliar tactics to spank them.

Ahh! But that untrained, under supplied, untested militia was neither untested nor untrained!

They'd been tested (the leaders, anyway) as British officers, and they had been tested in the French and Indian War before the Revolution. Besides, they were falling apart and near decimation until? That's right! Until Von Steuben was brought in to...train them. In other words, it took a good foundation in discipline and drill before the Americans were an effective fighting force. Before that, all they had was, well, reality. Reality without training had resulted in near catastrophic losses and nearly knocked the Revolution down before it got going. So I guess what I'm trying to say is...thanks for proving my point.

Wouldn't you say it was true that the tactics taught in school are never the ones used on the front lines because experience has taught the veterans the flaws in their schooling that will get you killed in the real world? In the Navy the saying goes, "that might be how they taught you to do it in school but that ain't the way it's done in the Fleet".

In a lot of cases, sure. But I'd also argue that it was precisely the opposite phenomenon that killed a lot of good people. People who felt they'd been in the shit long enough to know better and disregarded their training often got all cut up as a direct result. "Reality" sometimes breeds a degree of comfort and familiarity that is truly unsafe. Lax security, shortcuts, and lackluster attention to detail have killed as many (more?) people than following the rulebook has.

Point being, it's a fine line. I think reality is only a good teacher if you have a very solid foundation in training. And I think that the more solid and "realistic" your training is, the easier reality will be for you when it hits. While one guy might spend his first real encounter just trying to get the jitters under control, another guy who's competed, been hit, been kicked, been knocked out, and been choked into unconsciousness might not have to worry about the jitters. Instead, he might be able to pay a little more attention to what's going on around him. Situational awareness is a byproduct of good training combining itself with experience. Take away training, and all you have is instinct. Time and time again in combat, the first instinct is wrong to the deadliest degree.

So while we are in 10000% agreement that MMA is not self-defense, I have to stand firmly behind the idea that it certainly can contribute to effective self-defense ability so long as one doesn't fall into the trap of believing it's the answer all by itself.

[TTEscrima]

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

Ahh! But that untrained, under supplied, untested militia was neither untested nor untrained!

They'd been tested (the leaders, anyway) as British officers, and they had been tested in the French and Indian War before the Revolution. Besides, they were falling apart and near decimation until? That's right! Until Von Steuben was brought in to...train them. In other words, it took a good foundation in discipline and drill before the Americans were an effective fighting force. Before that, all they had was, well, reality. Reality without training had resulted in near catastrophic losses and nearly knocked the Revolution down before it got going. So I guess what I'm trying to say is...thanks for proving my point.

Actually I ambushed you. The rifled barrel was the difference, it's what allowed the use of tactics that were unknown due to the silly idea of set rules in war. The British actually had to capture American fighters and take them to England to show their superiors that we could hit a squirrel while they couldn't hit a barn. It wasn't the old school training of any of the people you named it was ingenuity and will to survive that allowed us to defeat the British methods. Their set ways of training were their downfall. We had developed the rifled barrel for hunting small game to eat, our real world experience helped us defeat the far better trained army who trained for a specific type of conflict because they believed it was superior.

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

So while we are in 10000% agreement that MMA is not self-defense, I have to stand firmly behind the idea that it certainly can contribute to effective self-defense ability so long as one doesn't fall into the trap of believing it's the answer all by itself.

That I agree with.

[Michael Wright]

Jesus Christ, looks like it took all night, but thats all I was ever trying to say.

[Michael Wright]

Originally Posted by Garland

The people that post here would be scary as hell enough as they are to have a bad encounter with.

What about a Mike Brewer, Michael Wright, Demi Barbido, Ray Floro, Guro Raf...?

There would be no way to tell. It wouldn't be like some ego inflated boxer or MMAer you'd be able to tell on sight with an entourage, but just some average-joe. You guys are a bunch of wolves in sheep's clothing.

Is there any good way to tell if somebody is on that level, or is it like stepping into a bear trap. I want to know what cues YOU guys give off before a fight. This may be an interesting case study.

Picture what you consider a fighter to look like. Now picture the opposite: someone who looks lanky and awkward, with a baby face, with a quiet personality, in a suit, wearing glasses. Thats me. I'm the guy that people don't think twice about pushing out of the way to get onto the tube, or showing me the finger when cutting across me in traffic, or chatting up my girlfriend right in front of me (that used to happen a lot).

This has been the situation for pretty much my whole adult life, and that is why training is such a crucial, irreplacable part of my fabric. I always say to people, if you want to know how I feel about who I am, look at my face when I hit the focus mitts. Sometimes there hasn't been a focus mitt, and someone, somewhere has pushed too hard. I didn't like what I saw, I don't have any nice fight stories. That is why training has to be there in my life, because I don't think I would like who I am without it.

[migo]

So what's an option for someone who can't handle the intensity of training in MMA or wrestling? (going back to a comment on page 1 or 2). How do you prepare someone who doesn't have the physical attributes or mindset for MMA type training (full resistance, few constraints)?

It's interesting to think about. While it's nice knowing that any kind of fighting back gives you a good chance in XX% of assaults, the remaining 100-XX% are the ones to worry about. What do you do if you provide resistance and your attacker provides counter resistance and you can't train in an MMA fashion?

[Tant01]

Get armed......