MMA is Not Self Defense!

[kingoftheforest]

I'd also like to point out that MMA was designed for arenas like UFC and not originally for the street or SD. RBSD is for just that Self Defense while some people may use it for aggressive purposes that's just being a thug not an RBSD guy.

Defense means you did not start the fight. It means that there is an aggressor attacking you or a person you feel is in your care and you are defending yourself/them against the aggressor. Do people screw the pooch on this concept? Most likely yes.

MMA could be used for self defense but a frying pan can be used as a weapon too. Would I think a frying pan is the best weapon I could carry to defend myself. Hell no! So if I had to choose between using a frying pan or a knife I choose the knife.

MMA wasn't designed for defense once again but for the ring. When you step into the ring it's not a question of weather or not your going to have to fight. You know without a doubt that you are going to fight someone. There is no avoiding it, there is no talking your way out of the situation, you have trained for one thing and that is to be an aggressor in the ring.

I don't know about other RBSD schools but here we train to attempt to avoid fights at all cost through whatever social engineering or avoidance techniques we can train for or think of. That's the difference I see in the two mind sets.
I have trained on both sides MMA and RBSD these are just my personal experiences and I am in no way attempting to say that anyone else's are any less valid. I'd just like to put what's on my mind out there.

Migo you present your thoughts and experiences in a respectful and direct manner and back them up with logical thought. That's very refreshing here compared to the way some people just say whatever and

..............................................

Thanks for the opportunity to view things from another angle. It always helps to see a different P.O.V.. Stimulates thought and helps me to understand things in my head a little better.

Sometimes it's hard to pull back and look at things subjectively.

KOTF

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

Originally Posted by kingoftheforest

I'd also like to point out that MMA was designed for arenas like UFC and not originally for the street or SD. RBSD is for just that Self Defense while some people may use it for aggressive purposes that's just being a thug not an RBSD guy.

Defense means you did not start the fight. It means that there is an aggressor attacking you or a person you feel is in your care and you are defending yourself/them against the aggressor. Do people screw the pooch on this concept? Most likely yes.

MMA could be used for self defense but a frying pan can be used as a weapon too. Would I think a frying pan is the best weapon I could carry to defend myself. Hell no! So if I had to choose between using a frying pan or a knife I choose the knife.

MMA wasn't designed for defense once again but for the ring. When you step into the ring it's not a question of weather or not your going to have to fight. You know without a doubt that you are going to fight someone. There is no avoiding it, there is no talking your way out of the situation, you have trained for one thing and that is to be an aggressor in the ring.

I don't know about other RBSD schools but here we train to attempt to avoid fights at all cost through whatever social engineering or avoidance techniques we can train for or think of. That's the difference I see in the two mind sets.
I have trained on both sides MMA and RBSD these are just my personal experiences and I am in no way attempting to say that anyone else's are any less valid. I'd just like to put what's on my mind out there.

Migo you present your thoughts and experiences in a respectful and direct manner and back them up with logical thought. That's very refreshing here compared to the way some people just say whatever and

..............................................

Thanks for the opportunity to view things from another angle. It always helps to see a different P.O.V.. Stimulates thought and helps me to understand things in my head a little better.

Sometimes it's hard to pull back and look at things subjectively.

KOTF

What Martial Arts do you currently train in?

[Garland]

Originally Posted by TTEscrima

My 20 years as a Master At Arms taught me that people who view fighting as a sport (a game) tend to get into them more often than the people who view fighting as self defense. People who train with weapons typically think fighting includes these things and as such tend to avoid them far more often than people who view fighting as a sport.

I think that's probably the smartest thing anyone has said in this goofy assed post so far...because I think that it is the main distinction. Putting megalomaniacal, ego-inflated sport fighters aside...training sport fighting (i.e. boxing, judo, jiu jitsu, etc etc etc) DOES add more (high percentage) tools to your arsenal, helps you prepare physically and mentally for the realities of a fight.

Self Defense people ("self defense" is probably a misnomer) sometimes train full contact, and sometimes can prepare their adherents to the realities of ACTUAL combat...but for the most part they are blow hard arm-chair warriors just spouting out their personal philosophies.

Somewhere in between is probably a nugget of golden truth.

[TTEscrima]

Originally Posted by Garland

I think that's probably the smartest thing anyone has said in this goofy assed post so far...because I think that it is the main distinction. Putting megalomaniacal, ego-inflated sport fighters aside...training sport fighting (i.e. boxing, judo, jiu jitsu, etc etc etc) DOES add more (high percentage) tools to your arsenal, helps you prepare physically and mentally for the realities of a fight.

Self Defense people ("self defense" is probably a misnomer) sometimes train full contact, and sometimes can prepare their adherents to the realities of ACTUAL combat...but for the most part they are blow hard arm-chair warriors just spouting out their personal philosophies.

Somewhere in between is probably a nugget of golden truth.

It's for damn sure that the large majority of RBSD/SD Guru's ain't ever been slapped by a chick much less been in a fight. On the other hand while I know it's in vogue to call the contests that happen in sporting events ring wars or call the athletes warriors, what happens in a ring isn't a fight, its a contest with rules, fights don't have rules. Any contest or fight that occurs that pits a ring seasoned fighter against a fighter from any system including combatives who has never been hit is going to go to the ring fighter. I don't have a problem with training in MMA, I have a problem with people who dismiss everything else that isn't MMA or can't be practiced in a ring. It's about the number of tools in the toolbox and leaving anything out shows a lack of common sense and supreme arrogance as well as an inability to comprehend reality.

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

Just because an art like Muay thai for example has been refined due to its competitors trying to be the best doesnt make its techniques any weaker or more unrealistic for the street. I take learning a proper right cross proper knee strike any day over learning a 'death touch'. A proper punch, proper kick, proper elbow, proper knee can always be aimed at the groin or eyes anyway. Sparring IS required to become efficient in these techniques. You cant spend most of your training doing breathing exercises, punching the air in slow motion, and thinking youll just be able to use a weapon to kill the guy youre fighting... and expect to be able to handle yourself in a fight

[migo]

Originally Posted by kingoftheforest

I'd also like to point out that MMA was designed for arenas like UFC and not originally for the street or SD. RBSD is for just that Self Defense while some people may use it for aggressive purposes that's just being a thug not an RBSD guy.

Defense means you did not start the fight. It means that there is an aggressor attacking you or a person you feel is in your care and you are defending yourself/them against the aggressor. Do people screw the pooch on this concept? Most likely yes.

I see a lot of RBSD folks really emphasising pre-emptive attacks. That doesn't strike me as defense, but enough of them are in the RBSD community that you can't say they're not RBSD.

MMA wasn't designed for defense once again but for the ring.

A) MMA wasn't designed, it happened
B) It's for fighting a trained opponent, the ring aspect is irrelevant. Dojo/gym matches where a lot of the characteristics you mentioned in ring fights aren't present are completely within the scope of MMA

When you step into the ring it's not a question of weather or not your going to have to fight. You know without a doubt that you are going to fight someone. There is no avoiding it, there is no talking your way out of the situation, you have trained for one thing and that is to be an aggressor in the ring.

You're wrong about the one thing part. MMA fighters don't train purely for one thing. Not as a definable characteristic anyway. There may be some who are like that, but that's not something you can describe MMA with.

I don't know about other RBSD schools but here we train to attempt to avoid fights at all cost through whatever social engineering or avoidance techniques we can train for or think of. That's the difference I see in the two mind sets.

I don't need an RBSD school to teach me that. My mother's 57 years old and hasn't been in a single fight. My grandmother's in her nineties and fled Holland for Switzerland, and had to get past German bordar patrols with a fake passport, she hasn't been in a single fight either. Outside of school, the gym, and competition, I haven't had a single fight. I just don't get in them. I didn't need to do anything special to learn how to not get into fights. You're spending time on something anyone can do instinctively, as long as they're not a hot-head. It's not a question of mindset when you train. MMA fighters don't get into fights because they train MMA. Those who do got into MMA because they like to fight, so it's not something that's created or determined by the training. You'll also have a hard time convincing me that the de-escalation drills and training you do have anything to do with you avoiding fights, as I know plenty of people who don't give it a second thought who are complete pros at not getting in fights. I could refer you to a full floor of girls from my dorm in university who haven't been in fights.

I have trained on both sides MMA and RBSD these are just my personal experiences and I am in no way attempting to say that anyone else's are any less valid. I'd just like to put what's on my mind out there.

I have quite the opposite experience. When I was flirting with RBSD (Senshido and Marc MacYoung), I was starting to apply the awareness and pre-empting principles that they talked about. I started becoming nervous and jumpy, and just on the edge of fighting. The closest I've ever been to getting into fights was when I was in the RBSD mindset and worrying that anyone might be wanting to attack me. I also started laughing when I realised guys who bragged about having hundreds of streetfights were the ones trying to tell me what did and didn't work in terms of avoiding fights. I clearly don't want to learn fight avoidance from someone who's had 200 of them.

Migo you present your thoughts and experiences in a respectful and direct manner and back them up with logical thought. That's very refreshing here compared to the way some people just say whatever and

..............................................

Heh. Yes. I was thinking the same thing about you. You bring up some good points that make me step back and re-evaluate whether my original stance was correct. I like that.

[migo]

TTE: That's quite fascinating that you could peg what training background they had based on where they got in fights. Do you have any insight into what influenced that?

[kingoftheforest]

Originally Posted by migo

I see a lot of RBSD folks really emphasising pre-emptive attacks. That doesn't strike me as defense, but enough of them are in the RBSD community that you can't say they're not RBSD

.

Like I said different experiences. I have yet to be trained by an RBSD teacher who advocates preemptive attacks. If that's been your experience then hey you find crappy schools in all arts.

Originally Posted by migo

A) MMA wasn't designed, it happened
B) It's for fighting a trained opponent, the ring aspect is irrelevant. Dojo/gym matches where a lot of the characteristics you mentioned in ring fights aren't present are completely within the scope of MMA

.

Sorry with everything I have read or been told MMA didn't really congeal or gain that term until UFC. Before I always heard of it as cross training. I'll have to do a little more in depth research on that. But even in dojo and ring matches there are rules. That is the only aspect that separates it from the street. That and the fact that you can't stop a street fight while everybody changes costumes.

Originally Posted by migo

You're wrong about the one thing part. MMA fighters don't train purely for one thing. Not as a definable characteristic anyway. There may be some who are like that, but that's not something you can describe MMA with.

Sorry I think you may have misunderstood. The one thing I was referring to was the actual fight. When you get in a ring no matter what styles or skills each fighter brings he knows there is going to be a fight.

Originally Posted by migo

I don't need an RBSD school to teach me that. My mother's 57 years old and hasn't been in a single fight. My grandmother's in her nineties and fled Holland for Switzerland, and had to get past German bordar patrols with a fake passport, she hasn't been in a single fight either. Outside of school, the gym, and competition, I haven't had a single fight. I just don't get in them. I didn't need to do anything special to learn how to not get into fights. You're spending time on something anyone can do instinctively, as long as they're not a hot-head. It's not a question of mindset when you train. MMA fighters don't get into fights because they train MMA. Those who do got into MMA because they like to fight, so it's not something that's created or determined by the training. You'll also have a hard time convincing me that the de-escalation drills and training you do have anything to do with you avoiding fights, as I know plenty of people who don't give it a second thought who are complete pros at not getting in fights. I could refer you to a full floor of girls from my dorm in university who haven't been in fights.

Can't disagree with that. Everyone can avoid fights, but didn't you just say there are people out there who will attack you just for the hell of it too. They are few and far between and I have only been in a few fights outside of anything to do with jobs I had doing security myself. But I have seen some people who lock up and have no clue what to do when some asshole starts screaming at them so not everybody can do that instinctively. It's good to train things you already know to get better at them. Everyone knows how to run but there are still people who train at it.

Originally Posted by migo

I have quite the opposite experience. When I was flirting with RBSD (Senshido and Marc MacYoung), I was starting to apply the awareness and pre-empting principles that they talked about. I started becoming nervous and jumpy, and just on the edge of fighting. The closest I've ever been to getting into fights was when I was in the RBSD mindset and worrying that anyone might be wanting to attack me. I also started laughing when I realised guys who bragged about having hundreds of streetfights were the ones trying to tell me what did and didn't work in terms of avoiding fights. I clearly don't want to learn fight avoidance from someone who's had 200 of them.

Paranoia is a terrible thing and you can easily trick your mind into it. Tom Yum (no offense bro) posted a perfect example of it. He was hyped up and ready to thrown down on a bum getting talking to himself on the bus. Bums who ride the bus are nuts they're gonna talk to themselves who the hell else is gonna? I go to work and Wal-Mart to the movies and all kinds of places. I have yet to get into a fight. If I think something may be a problem I just avoid it all together, I don't reach for my knife or begin checking for the exits. I don't start having breathing problems or sweating. If someone starts yelling at me I tend to ignore them but keep them in my peripheral vision. If they approach me I ask "Can I help you Sir/Ma'am?"

If the training you received caused you to be paranoid I can't really psycho analyze that on a forum but I don't seem to have that problem in my daily life.

As for idiots who claim to have been in hundreds of street fights. Usually the ones voicing their great conquests are the ones who are full of shit. If anyone had been in hundreds of street fights unless they were military in an occupied zone (which counts as combat to me) or an L.E.O. then they would be behind bars plain and simple. You don't get into that many street fights without law enforcement seeing you as a nuisance or instigator.

Originally Posted by migo

Heh. Yes. I was thinking the same thing about you. You bring up some good points that make me step back and re-evaluate whether my original stance was correct. I like that.

Like I said earlier and Mr. Brewer here voiced also. I am not saying MMA is useless and may be what some people choose to use for SD. In my opinion I just don't think it's the best set of tools for me. I'm not into trophies or fighting for no reason so the ring appeal doesn't grab my attention. I spent some time doing it and moved on. This is just my opinion and I appreciate that we can respect each others' rights to those. Thank you again Migo this is the first time I can say that one of these threads didn't turn into a pissing contest. Thanks for the input everyone. Rereading this and processing all the sides and views so far will be a real treat.

Mike great post too you really put things is a better light instead of the usual crap flinging contest these degrade into. Your post have given me a lot to think on as well.

KOTF

[kingoftheforest]

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

Do what you like. Play around with different stuff. In the end, do what you know works best for you and stay open to new options. If everybody played by that rule, we wouldn't have this fucking MMA vs Every-Other-Goddamned-Thing Jihad all the time.

Derka Derka Jihad. Derka Derka Ahmen.

But all the infidels must die Mike or at least change their minds.




Seriously though it only took like what a hundred threads and all kinds of crap flinging for us to come to a conclusive point in all this. Better late than never right.

[migo]

Originally Posted by kingoftheforest

.

Like I said different experiences. I have yet to be trained by an RBSD teacher who advocates preemptive attacks. If that's been your experience then hey you find crappy schools in all arts.

Got any links to your teachers? I haven't found any RBSD schools that didn't advocate preemptive attacks.

Sorry with everything I have read or been told MMA didn't really congeal or gain that term until UFC. Before I always heard of it as cross training. I'll have to do a little more in depth research on that. But even in dojo and ring matches there are rules. That is the only aspect that separates it from the street. That and the fact that you can't stop a street fight while everybody changes costumes.

Yeah, cross-training gives MMA a lot of variance. It was a term given to people who were doing it, hence the not designed part. There's a lot of variance in street fights, and not everyone sticks to the rules in a dojo match.

Sorry I think you may have misunderstood. The one thing I was referring to was the actual fight. When you get in a ring no matter what styles or skills each fighter brings he knows there is going to be a fight.

Ah ok. Yes, you're right. I'm missing the significance of that detail though.

Can't disagree with that. Everyone can avoid fights, but didn't you just say there are people out there who will attack you just for the hell of it too.

Yep, there are also bombs that can go off where you happen to be walking, and street racing kids who can hit you on the sidewalk when they swerve.

They are few and far between and I have only been in a few fights outside of anything to do with jobs I had doing security myself. But I have seen some people who lock up and have no clue what to do when some asshole starts screaming at them so not everybody can do that instinctively. It's good to train things you already know to get better at them. Everyone knows how to run but there are still people who train at it.

Fair point. I don't see locking up as a death sentence though. You can lock up and stand there while someone's screaming at you and not get beat up.

Paranoia is a terrible thing and you can easily trick your mind into it. Tom Yum (no offense bro) posted a perfect example of it. He was hyped up and ready to thrown down on a bum getting talking to himself on the bus. Bums who ride the bus are nuts they're gonna talk to themselves who the hell else is gonna? I go to work and Wal-Mart to the movies and all kinds of places. I have yet to get into a fight. If I think something may be a problem I just avoid it all together, I don't reach for my knife or begin checking for the exits. I don't start having breathing problems or sweating. If someone starts yelling at me I tend to ignore them but keep them in my peripheral vision. If they approach me I ask "Can I help you Sir/Ma'am?"

If the training you received caused you to be paranoid I can't really psycho analyze that on a forum but I don't seem to have that problem in my daily life.

I don't have it anymore either. I just stopped thinking about those things. I stopped worrying about where I'm standing in an elevator. I stopped worrying about whether my hands could get out of my pockets easily, I stopped worrying if some grumpy bastard was about to attack me, and just went with the assumption that it wasn't going to happen. I don't go to ATMs on the street late at night though. That's pushing my luck. If doing something looks like it'll really increase my chances of having trouble I just don't do it at all. I used to do some research into bullet proof vests, because some people got shot at a club I was at. Eventually I got some senses and stopped going to clubs, and I just refuse to go to any club that has metal detectors. I know people can get weapons past them (I used to do it all the time), and if they have them, they're clearly worried someone might bring a weapon. Good warning sign for me and I just stay away. Seems like we have the same method, and I'd be surprised if we arrived on it in a particularly different manner.

As for idiots who claim to have been in hundreds of street fights. Usually the ones voicing their great conquests are the ones who are full of shit. If anyone had been in hundreds of street fights unless they were military in an occupied zone (which counts as combat to me) or an L.E.O. then they would be behind bars plain and simple. You don't get into that many street fights without law enforcement seeing you as a nuisance or instigator.

Good point. Interesting thing though is these guys are quite prominent members of the RBSD community.

Like I said earlier and Mr. Brewer here voiced also. I am not saying MMA is useless and may be what some people choose to use for SD. In my opinion I just don't think it's the best set of tools for me. I'm not into trophies or fighting for no reason so the ring appeal doesn't grab my attention. I spent some time doing it and moved on. This is just my opinion and I appreciate that we can respect each others' rights to those. Thank you again Migo this is the first time I can say that one of these threads didn't turn into a pissing contest. Thanks for the input everyone. Rereading this and processing all the sides and views so far will be a real treat.

I can understand that. My brother's the same way. I actually get a rush out of competition fighting, and if I haven't been doing it for a while I start itching for a fight. Doing MMA probably keeps me calm enough that I don't feel I have to get into fights in a non-controlled environment. I've run into a couple others who have similar experiences (and then of course the guys who like to fight and train MMA so they win instead of getting their asses beat...).

[migo]

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

Do what you like. Play around with different stuff. In the end, do what you know works best for you and stay open to new options. If everybody played by that rule, we wouldn't have this fucking MMA vs Every-Other-Goddamned-Thing Jihad all the time.

MMA did develop out of a question of what style is best. It's somewhat expected that it'll generate these kinds of discussions.

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by migo

I.....

A) MMA wasn't designed, it happened
.......

Originally Posted by migo

MMA did develop out of a question of what style is best. It's somewhat expected that it'll generate these kinds of discussions.

::::sigh::::

The recent evolution in so called MMA came about because of the popularity of a certain Brazilian family style of Judo. (Jiu-Jitsu)

Once the UFC was up and running it became about beating the BJJ/GJJ guys.

Folks have been cross training styles for ever... Kajukenbo is a good example of that (pre bruce lee) mixed martial arts.

Masahiko Kimura cross trained in wrestling and boxing in addition to being a Judo master...

Judo itself is a relatively modern "mixed" martial art. It answered the question of which art is "best" over a hundred years ago...

[kingoftheforest]

Originally Posted by Tant01

::::sigh::::

The recent evolution in so called MMA came about because of the popularity of a certain Brazilian family style of Judo. (Jiu-Jitsu)

Once the UFC was up and running it became about beating the BJJ/GJJ guys.

Folks have been cross training styles for ever... Kajukenbo is a good example of that (pre bruce lee) mixed martial arts.

Masahiko Kimura cross trained in wrestling and boxing in addition to being a Judo master...

Judo itself is a relatively modern "mixed" martial art. It answered the question of which art is "best" over a hundred years ago...

Zing! ................

[DickHardman]

judo/jiu jitsu pwns all.

i think the "way" is truly one of the best ways

[migo]

Originally Posted by Tant01

::::sigh::::

The recent evolution in so called MMA came about because of the popularity of a certain Brazilian family style of Judo. (Jiu-Jitsu)

Once the UFC was up and running it became about beating the BJJ/GJJ guys.

Folks have been cross training styles for ever... Kajukenbo is a good example of that (pre bruce lee) mixed martial arts.

Masahiko Kimura cross trained in wrestling and boxing in addition to being a Judo master...

Judo itself is a relatively modern "mixed" martial art. It answered the question of which art is "best" over a hundred years ago...

They didn't call it MMA then. When anyone's talking about MMA it's in the context of the last 15 years.