Shamrock & Le

[bigboywasim]

Cung Le is a Sanshou fighter. He is one of the best in the world in this art. This is the modern and most advanced version of Kung Fu . Le is also an all American Greco Roman wrestling champion. Le is a Chinese/Vietnamese - American

Shamrock has been fighting MMA for a long time. He is better rounded than Le as Le does not have a really good submission game yet. Le is working on it though with American Top Team. Le has six professional MMA fights now under is belt.

Le owned Shamrock this fight. He is the better striker and avoided any take downs. Those sidekicks really put a hurt on Shamrock and Le ended up breaking Shamrocks arms with powerful shin kicks.

Many MMA fighters underestimate the sidekick. This is a powerful and effective kick and it showed in this fight. It does take skill to use it like Le did.

This was a great fight.

I have the whole fight for you guys.

Round 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tV8ikCM6v-I

Round 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Glj-KEdtHKE

Round 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sIixyr2AEg

[Tom Yum]

Originally Posted by DickHardman

thats only cause they are ignorant.

Interesting point.

Le's original stand up style is heavily influenced by TKD whereas most MMA fighters start off with westernized muaythai for stand up (not as much emphasis on thai-clinch and elbows, more emphasis on boxing), so Le is more comfortable throwing high, fast kicks that are not normally part of the MMA stand up arsenal.

San shou has allowed Le to keep up and sharpen his TKD skill set, since TMA style kicks are still used but also take up the push kick and thai round kick. Le also used some good kick-catches against Shamrock as well. Spinning back fists too.

Le isn't the first guy to use high, fancy kicks in full-contact fighting. There was a guy named Manson Gibson who used to fight muaythai in thailand in the 80's - I think he came from either a chinese ma background or kenpo. While he was a so-so fighter, alot of his wins were by KO with high, fancy kicks.

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by Tom Yum

Cung can make alot of stand up techniques work that most can't.

I love his catch kick and sweep takedown! That was one of his best tricks in the fight. Too bad Le is not more confident in his grappling yet.

I saw him setting up those backfists too, those were sweet! He made Frank play his game. I figured the domination would be tested by the end of the fight but it was already too late. Le was going for the decision and Frank made one mistake too many.

Better luck next time Mr. Shamrock!

[Pit Dog]

Originally Posted by JkD187

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/showthread.php?t=757308
stick to being a keyboard warrior joe.....

1. What does this link have to do with anything?

2. Are you saying Shamrock didn't quit?

3. Do you know how many fighters have taken more blows, suffered more injuries, and yet never quit on their stools?



Stick to being an apologist and not a fight analyst.

[Mike Brewer]

Pit Dog, if the man's arm was broken, the man's arm was broken. There's no dishonor in quitting to a broken arm. People, in fact, quit to far less every time they tap out. When you tap out because an arm bar hurts or might break your arm, you're quitting to avoid the very same kind of injury Shamrock actually received.

It's cool if you don't like Shamrock, but the posturing is pretty empty if you ask me.

[bigboywasim]

Shamrock did not quit, his arm broke at 5.01 minutes in the 3rd round. Check my clips of the fight again and you will notice it.

TKO (Corner Stoppage - Kicks caused an ulnar fracture)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Shamrock

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cung_Le

[ninjaiboy22]

Wow! Cung Le was awesome!
What an enviroment, all though it didn't sell out like the last strikeforce fight, it was still an amazing show.
So what was this stand up fight all about? Where was the ground fight. If I wanted to see a K1 fight I would've gone to Japan last week.
Shamrock had a great run near the end of round 3, I thought for sure he would take him down after he dazed le.

But props to LE!!!!

[Pit Dog]

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

Pit Dog, if the man's arm was broken, the man's arm was broken. There's no dishonor in quitting to a broken arm. People, in fact, quit to far less every time they tap out. When you tap out because an arm bar hurts or might break your arm, you're quitting to avoid the very same kind of injury Shamrock actually received.

It's cool if you don't like Shamrock, but the posturing is pretty empty if you ask me.

I was pulling for Frank before the fight, but I told my buddy that his stamina and heart are suspect if it goes awhile. If you watch the Baroni fight, Shamrock did the same thing right after ... he laid down, gasping for breath, with a look of pure agony on his face. Frank was a round or two away from quitting against Baroni too, even though he won.

I don't buy the arm was the deciding factor. In fact, immediately before the end of the round, Shamrock threw his right ... as hard as he could ... then the bell rung.

Take a really good look at that tape, and it is pretty clear what happened to Shamrock. Shamrock tried to step-up the pace and go for a knockout after getting completely humiliated by that sweep. And Shamrock came pretty close to getting Le. Cung Le was rocked and was going backward as they traded. Both men's hands were dropped, both men's chins were hanging out there, and both men were throwing haymakers. It was simply a matter of who got there first.

Cung Le's combination punching was the difference over Shamrock's one-punch-at-a-time attack, on top of which Le's unusually good kicks were something that Shamrock wasn't used to. Shamrock got nailed hard in the jaw with a kick, then a backfist, and then he got blasted to the ropes with a 3-punch combo ... and then he took another huge kick to the head ... and then the bell rung.

Shamrock's eyes were initially still "in fight mode" when the bell rung, and they stayed fixed on Cung Le as he walked away ... but then about 2 seconds later the effect of those last kicks caught up with Shamrock ... and he went down to one knee before he even got to his stool. Shamrock was woozy when he went to that stool and he decided that it felt pretty good, and he made a conscious decision that he didn't want to go back out there for more abuse. I don't know how you want to sugar-coat it, but that is a quit

Watch the tape and you can see the progression I just stated. Shamrock really felt the effects of those head kicks after the bell rung, which made him sink down to one knee, then he realized how tired and hurt he was, and then he made a conscious decision to quit on his stool.

Credit to Cung Le ... they both were rocked bad and pretty tired at the end of that last round, they both had their hands down, and they both were going for broke ... but Cung Le proved he really did want to be Champion, while Frank laid down and basically said, "Here you can have the Championship belt. I don't want it bad enough anymore."

To compare Shamrock's heart to true fighting Champions like Marquez and Pacquiao would be a disgrace. He is nowhere near that game.

Jack

[DickHardman]

Originally Posted by Tom Yum

Interesting point.

Le's original stand up style is heavily influenced by TKD whereas most MMA fighters start off with westernized muaythai for stand up (not as much emphasis on thai-clinch and elbows, more emphasis on boxing), so Le is more comfortable throwing high, fast kicks that are not normally part of the MMA stand up arsenal.

San shou has allowed Le to keep up and sharpen his TKD skill set, since TMA style kicks are still used but also take up the push kick and thai round kick. Le also used some good kick-catches against Shamrock as well. Spinning back fists too.

Le isn't the first guy to use high, fancy kicks in full-contact fighting. There was a guy named Manson Gibson who used to fight muaythai in thailand in the 80's - I think he came from either a chinese ma background or kenpo. While he was a so-so fighter, alot of his wins were by KO with high, fancy kicks.

all those spin back kicks, side kicks, and sidekick/backfist combinations can be trained and used effectively. people just think they are of no value because you dont see them in mma. i guarantee you after this fight, you are going to see people veering back towards those so called "fancy moves" after seeing le use them. i mean, look at the sidekick/backfist combination lee used multiple times. looks crazy, but that backfist just feeds off the sidekick. that move is a very simple one, but people will see that and think its crazy or on a whole nother level because most guys in mma just stick with boxing or mt or they were told by others that its no good.

[JkD187]

Originally Posted by Pit Dog

I was pulling for Frank before the fight, but I told my buddy that his stamina and heart are suspect if it goes awhile. If you watch the Baroni fight, Shamrock did the same thing right after ... he laid down, gasping for breath, with a look of pure agony on his face. Frank was a round or two away from quitting against Baroni too, even though he won.

I don't buy the arm was the deciding factor. In fact, immediately before the end of the round, Shamrock threw his right ... as hard as he could ... then the bell rung.

Take a really good look at that tape, and it is pretty clear what happened to Shamrock. Shamrock tried to step-up the pace and go for a knockout after getting completely humiliated by that sweep. And Shamrock came pretty close to getting Le. Cung Le was rocked and was going backward as they traded. Both men's hands were dropped, both men's chins were hanging out there, and both men were throwing haymakers. It was simply a matter of who got there first.

Cung Le's combination punching was the difference over Shamrock's one-punch-at-a-time attack, on top of which Le's unusually good kicks were something that Shamrock wasn't used to. Shamrock got nailed hard in the jaw with a kick, then a backfist, and then he got blasted to the ropes with a 3-punch combo ... and then he took another huge kick to the head ... and then the bell rung.

Shamrock's eyes were initially still "in fight mode" when the bell rung, and they stayed fixed on Cung Le as he walked away ... but then about 2 seconds later the effect of those last kicks caught up with Shamrock ... and he went down to one knee before he even got to his stool. Shamrock was woozy when he went to that stool and he decided that it felt pretty good, and he made a conscious decision that he didn't want to go back out there for more abuse. I don't know how you want to sugar-coat it, but that is a quit

Watch the tape and you can see the progression I just stated. Shamrock really felt the effects of those head kicks after the bell rung, which made him sink down to one knee, then he realized how tired and hurt he was, and then he made a conscious decision to quit on his stool.

Credit to Cung Le ... they both were rocked bad and pretty tired at the end of that last round, they both had their hands down, and they both were going for broke ... but Cung Le proved he really did want to be Champion, while Frank laid down and basically said, "Here you can have the Championship belt. I don't want it bad enough anymore."

To compare Shamrock's heart to true fighting Champions like Marquez and Pacquiao would be a disgrace. He is nowhere near that game.

Jack

it was a great fight that was entertaining and thats what counts.....say what you will about Frank only he knows why he quit be it injury or simply because he had enough but the link clearly shows he broke it and continued to fight even after...he has nothing to be ashamed about and deserves respect....so take it for whats its worth.

[Pit Dog]

Originally Posted by DickHardman

all those spin back kicks, side kicks, and sidekick/backfist combinations can be trained and used effectively. people just think they are of no value because you dont see them in mma. i guarantee you after this fight, you are going to see people veering back towards those so called "fancy moves" after seeing le use them. i mean, look at the sidekick/backfist combination lee used multiple times. looks crazy, but that backfist just feeds off the sidekick. that move is a very simple one, but people will see that and think its crazy or on a whole nother level because most guys in mma just stick with boxing or mt or they were told by others that its no good.

I wrote an article in Black Belt magazine almost 10 years ago to this date, predicting the evolution of MMA to once again favor strikers. Back in those days, grapplers were eating strikers alive, but I predicted that the styles would merge, and then striking would eventually return to prominence in fights. And this is exactly what is happening.

But the reason is his foundation in grappling. Cung Le's foundation in throws and avoiding takedowns, thanks to san shou and wrestling, are what have allowed him to showcase his superior striking ability. Le is a very strong and physical man, with good base and good reflexes, that enable him to fend-off takedown attempts and continue to beat people with his superior striking capabilities. And his non-traditional non-muay thai kicks are befuddling to people I think.

More and more you will see guys with superior striking dominate MMA, who have just a decent foundation on good grappling. Because most people in MMA still can't take a punch -- or throw one properly. So when a superior striker knows enough not to get taken out on the ground, and can stand back up again, he can totally dominate in striking ... which will put him far ahead of the competition. In fact, this is how Liddell has dominated so many people ... and in fact he also got creamed in the same way, by Rampage.

[Pit Dog]

Originally Posted by JkD187

it was a great fight that was entertaining and thats what counts.....

I never said the fight wasn't entertaining

Originally Posted by JkD187

say what you will about Frank only he knows why he quit be it injury or simply because he had enough but the link clearly shows he broke it and continued to fight even after...

The link shows a broken arm I guess, but there is nothing at all clear in proving that said arm belongs to Frank Shamrock. This is merely what is being alleged.

Originally Posted by JkD187

he has nothing to be ashamed about and deserves respect....so take it for whats its worth.

On the one hand, I respect Frank for trying to beat a striker at his own game, just to prove to himself he could do it. From a purely "testing myself out as a martial artist" standpoint, this tactic was admirable. However, from a purely "let's try to win" standpoint, it was a stupid strategy.

I will agree that Frank put on a good show, and that he tried pretty hard to win, but I still say he quit on his stool. I guess if he didn't have such a big mouth I would be more understanding. But the simple fact is, he gave up, and another fact is there have been far braver fighters who would not have ... somebody else would have to stop the fight for them.

So take that for what it's worth.

[JkD187]

Fair enough opinions are opinions i guess....everyone is entitled to one.

[Mike Brewer]

The link shows a broken arm I guess, but there is nothing at all clear in proving that said arm belongs to Frank Shamrock. This is merely what is being alleged.

Dude, that's reaching. This is akin to those kooks who deny the moon landings and say all the pictures were faked.

He did throw that hand - hard - and then he dropped his arm down by his hip and winced. Watch the video again.

[daringdex]

well frank is no longer the same frank who used to beat up top level fighters. For me he has nothing to prove. But if the fight took like 5 years ago then Frank would have taken him to the ground and punished him there. well they're two helluva fighters...