Shamrock & Le

[Pit Dog]

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

First of all, knock off the personal attacks. You have not earned any respect from me here and you don't get the same slack as those who have. If you can't be civil, just leave.

Excuse me pal, but I have been a member of this forum before you ever joined here. Second, speaking of personal attacks, if you review our posts you will notice that you were the one who started the attack with your profanity, calling my opinions "horseshit," weren't you?

Therefore, if you would like to keep things civil, and re-direct this discussion to a philosophical one, you are welcome to apologize for your shitty attitude and we can start anew again.

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

I asked you for examples of people with broken arms who've fought through it. Can you provide any? You certainly didn't in that last post. Archie Moore was an undeniable badass, and I agree. But he didn't have a broken arm against Durelle.

I did provide you with examples. Did you forget Biggs' collar bone? The broken hand examples? And there are hundreds of fighters who have taken more punches and kicks than Shamrock did without quitting.

What do you want me to do at this point, list every fighter who has ever lived that took more abuse than Shamrock? The examples I have given are plenty.

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

I also asked you if you could quote a time when Frank Shamrock referred to himself as the toughest most courageous fighter in the world. Can you? Because again - you didn't. The quotes you put in your reply said no such thing. So again, I'll ask you whether or not you're paraphrasing and trying to make pre-fight comments fit your argument or do you have some proof?

The quotes I provided implied this.

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

Like who? And what worse circumstances? When? Saying it over and over doesn't make it any more true.

Nor will your repeating the same questions over and over again, oblivious to my responses.

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

All I've been suggesting is that you're judging an accomplished fighter by a set of nonsense standards. And since you either can't or won't back up your claims to the contrary, I guess you are. Either that or you have decided that your opinion alone is enough to make something true. Either way, it's not much of an argument.

My standards may be nonsense to you, but your excuses for a fighter quitting are nonsense to me.

I have backed up my claims, but you either refuse (aren't bright enough or aren't knowlegeable enough) to concede my points.

Finally, it is a matter of simple logic and word definition that quitting is the opposite of courage. Quitting is the cessation of courage and will, not its continuance. "Reasons" for quitting may be valid, but this doesn't make quitting suddenly equal to courage.

It is the man who refuses to listen to any "reason" to quit, but who carries on anyway, who is the truly courageous fighter. The rest are but one more of many quitters.

[GQchris]

I got nothing but respect for Le, a humble Man who let his fighting do the talking.

[Knuckles&Knees]

My opinion, for whatever it's worth, I see it kind of from both sides, those two sides being Mike B's and Pit's view. I'm not at all trying to take the cheesy middle road and play nice guy who can't take a stand on one side or the other. But having been punched in the ring before I'm less judgmental on many fighters - at least from the perspective of being "armchair warrior." I try to judge justly but I can only try.

Anyways... I think Pit has made some very real points related to the tested and proven endurance of many professional boxers. I think MMA has proven that to be a well rounded fighter one has to become a decent grappler - at minimum you need to know some grappling skills to survive against grapplers. That said, I would hope those that are in the grappling or MMA world would come to respect boxers and kick boxers just a little more after having seen this fight. Repeated blows over and over can wear you down and test your heart. Some blows - one blow - can even put you down.

Pit is also on point when he acknowledges the hellafied beatings some boxers have taken over their careers or even in just one fight. The boxer in such cases has admiral endurance. I would say the same for kick boxers.



Mike B is also speaking the honest facts about the matter too that most of us - well me and most other people at least - would not have fought through with that broken arm in a mere sporting event where stopping, and carrying on to make more money a later day is an option. Frankly, I'm awed by how some people fight on with broken hands and jaws. But I'm probably more of Roy Jones Jr mind that a fighter, a wise fighter, perhaps does not risk his/her body and health when they are already severely injured. If you enjoy your money or ability to move your body and fight, then what happens if one or both of those are taken from you? I see punch drunk fighters and I think, "man that is no way to end up."

Frank fought a good fight, he should be proud of that. I was impressed with his ability to actually trade and rock Cung Le not to mention he took quite a number of good shots from Le. It might be true, as Pit says, that Frank's heart gave out more than his arm and consequent pain per se. But only Frank knows that, and even if that were the case I can't blame him because at this point in my life I would do the same.

Le did a good job, I was rooting for him by the way, and I don't all agree with those that say next time Frank can just easily take Cung Le down and finish him off. Yeah, Frank almost certainly wins if both of them hit the mat, I just question that if there is a next time if Frank will be able to get him there. Le's strikes were true and any grappler would have to weather them. There still remains a place for striking in this world... and grapplers beware.



Sorry for the long post.

[Mike Brewer]

Pit,
I maintain that it is a horseshit statement that ceding a fight due to a broken arm is a lack of courage. I think that's bullshit. Nothing about that statement says anything about YOU.

However, if you were offended by my remarks, I apologize. I'm truly sorry.

You're absolutely right. I am the bad guy here and I have wronged you unfairly. It's all my fault. I beg unendingly for your forgiveness and I'm sorry to have offended you so.

Now that all that is out of the way, I still say that Frank has shown a great deal of poise in the ring. He's fought hard fights against top opponents, and he's made most of them look bad. He beat Tito Ortiz like a snare drum. He damn near killed Igor Zinoviev when they fought. He's stepped up and fought hard, and I think it's pretty ridiculous to take all that away from the guy because he got his arm snapped. If we differ on that opinion, that's cool. Nothing about the discussion, however, is worth getting as spun up as you are. If it's a personal issue, that's fine. Hardly worth getting all up in arms about. It's certainly not worth getting yourself banned over.

So we differ in opinion. I think Frank is a competitor who fought until he realized the extent of the damage done ot his arm and then he did what other quality fighters with tons of heart have done in the face of far less damage: he tapped out. You think Frank's a softie. Cool.

As for apologies and posturing and pissing contests, you've got my apology, and now I'll be expecting yours.

[Pit Dog]

That is a very well-balanced post Knuckles & Knees. Of particular interest are these three quotes:

Originally Posted by Knuckles&Knees

Frankly, I'm awed by how some people fight on with broken hands and jaws.

And that is exactly right. The few fighers who absolutely, positively will not stop trying to win are a special breed and deserve special consideration. Common is the man who can be stopped. Rare is the man whom you must kill to stop.

The Founding Fathers of our country were of the latter variety also. They were outnumbered, outpositioned, and they had many reasons to quit also ... but because they refused to yield and made it win-or-die, our country was born.

Originally Posted by Knuckles&Knees

But I'm probably more of Roy Jones Jr mind that a fighter, a wise fighter, perhaps does not risk his/her body and health when they are already severely injured.

Never liked Roy Jones. A helluvan athlete, yes ... a truly gritty and game fighter no matter what, no.

Originally Posted by Knuckles&Knees

If you enjoy your money or ability to move your body and fight, then what happens if one or both of those are taken from you? I see punch drunk fighters and I think, "man that is no way to end up."

Sometimes that is the paradox of truth. Did you know that the majority of The Founding Fathers (that lived) died broke and ruined ... and yet they still "won." Many lost their lives, their homes, their children and spouses, and yet they won something more precious than any of that stuff. An ideal.

[Mike Brewer]

No comment, Pit?

[Pit Dog]

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

Pit,
I maintain that it is a horseshit statement that ceding a fight due to a broken arm is a lack of courage. I think that's bullshit. Nothing about that statement says anything about YOU.

Yes it does, your statement says what I believe is bullshit. You spoke ill of my beliefs.

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

Pit,
However, if you were offended by my remarks, I apologize. I'm truly sorry.
You're absolutely right. I am the bad guy here and I have wronged you unfairly. It's all my fault. I beg unendingly for your forgiveness and I'm sorry to have offended you so.

Sarcasm is not an apology, it is adding insult to injury.

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

Pit,
Now that all that is out of the way, I still say that Frank has shown a great deal of poise in the ring. He's fought hard fights against top opponents, and he's made most of them look bad. He beat Tito Ortiz like a snare drum. He damn near killed Igor Zinoviev when they fought. He's stepped up and fought hard, and I think it's pretty ridiculous to take all that away from the guy because he got his arm snapped.

I didn't take anything away from Frank, and those fights weren't this fight. How a man acts when he's winning means nothing to how he acts when he's losing. More than losing, when he's legitimately getting hurt. Losing "on points" doesn't test courage either ... only losing on brutality does.

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

Pit,
If we differ on that opinion, that's cool. Nothing about the discussion, however, is worth getting as spun up as you are. If it's a personal issue, that's fine. Hardly worth getting all up in arms about. It's certainly not worth getting yourself banned over.

I am not "spun-up" at all, you are. I am not the one having a hissy-fit and threatening to ban you, you are the one having a hissy-fit and threatening to ban me.

And as for your threats of "banning" me over this trivial dispute, this is laughable and the mark of weakness on your part. Go talk to the forum owner Tim Mousel about me, and see if he wants me banned. He remembers the glory days of this forum, and he remembers who was here long before you ever put on a gi. I haven't been here for a long time, true, but I promise you Tim has not forgotten my contributions here.

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

So we differ in opinion. I think Frank is a competitor who fought until he realized the extent of the damage done ot his arm and then he did what other quality fighters with tons of heart have done in the face of far less damage: he tapped out. You think Frank's a softie. Cool.

Yes we differ in opinion, but not to the extent you claim. I never said Frank is "a softie," you keep putting words in my mouth. I said Frank is not what I would call a truly elite fighter in his heart. Again, it is easy to look good when you're winning and dominating. And it is even easy to "keep going" when you're losing on points, but not really hurt. But few men will absolutely, positively refuse to give up no matter what is happening to them. And Frank Shamrock is simply not one of those rare, elite few.

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

As for apologies and posturing and pissing contests, you've got my apology, and now I'll be expecting yours.

You have not truly apologized, you have only postured and pissed.

I do not owe you an apology, and I don't really care if you give me one or not either. I merely responded to you "in kind" sir.

In closing if you wish to continue this discussion, I will be happy to do so. We can continue in a spirit of sarcasm, or we can continue in a spirit of honest communication ... or you can show your weakness and "ban me" over this trivial dispute, I really doesn't really matter to me. But when I speak I will speak my mind.

Thank you,

Jack

[Mike Brewer]

Pit, you're being overly hostile and there's no need for it. I explained this, and I'm sorry you feel the way you do.

[JkD187]

Badass convo going on here

Brewer don't worry about this guy.....just because he's seen a FEW fighters...FEW and far inbetween that is with the type of heart displayed by special fighters suddenly that's the "STANDARD" for ALL fighters and if anyone gives even an once less MR.ARMCHAIR here deems it not worthy.

Like i said before Joe stick to the keyboard and your "evaluations"

[DickHardman]

i was correct. i went to go train tonight, and sure enough what do i see when i walk in the gym?? i see people on the bags trying to work spin back kicks, side kicks, and back fists. a week ago, people trying to use those techniques would have been looked at funny.

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by DickHardman

i was correct. i went to go train tonight, and sure enough what do i see when i walk in the gym?? i see people on the bags trying to work spin back kicks, side kicks, and back fists. a week ago, people trying to use those techniques would have been looked at funny.

That's a riot... LOL

[Mike Brewer]

Remember the old Nike commericals about Michael Jordan: "I wanna be like Mike?" Maybe Cung Le can get a Nike deal out of this...

[Michael Wright]

Originally Posted by Pit Dog

Never liked Roy Jones. A helluvan athlete, yes ... a truly gritty and game fighter no matter what, no

52 wins. 38 knockouts. World Champion at 4 different weights.

You honestly believe, as an ex Boxer, that he achieved that without being a "truly gritty and game fighter no matter what"? Come on Pit, thats up there with your notion that conditioning doesn't include heart.

[Tant01]

If the ultimate goal of a fight is to PRESERVE your life and limb it seems moronic (to me) to keep fighting with a serious injury. Especially since the ARENA game is supposed to be a SPORT. If more is required to escape with your life then keep fighting but your LIFE is not at stake in the ARENA. Like it or not it's TRAGIC to die...

PIT DOG reminds me of Helio Gracie. HG reminds me of the old jujutsu fighters. They would rather suffer or die than admit defeat...Never submit!!! LOL The so called "code" of the warrior. PHUI! National pride, pay check, school loyalty... All more precious than one life, eh?

Probably not the smartest folks in the world but perhaps some of the meanest. Fortunately there is a referee to step in on behalf of those who would sacrifice their life or limb to the sport... Or a corner man to throw in a towel...

Pit Dog may have the most accurate name for his personality. Don't let him lock his jaws on you! There is no escape from the PIT. You win or you die trying, right? Blood sports. Violence to the extreme! Don't bother giving your opponent an opportunity to tap out. Break something! Choke him hard until the REF stops the fight... NO MERCY! NO SURRENDER! That's a bad attitude. It's un sportsman like and uncivilized. Might work for a pit bull but not for me...

Respectfully,

~R

[JKDBrando]

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