Expanding the MMA Arsenal

[Michael Wright]

Originally Posted by Tom Yum

I think boxing is awesome and works very efficiently, but from time to time someone brings a skill set that they can use just as efficiently that catches others off guard and adds to the evolution of MMA.

For example, during the first couple of years in UFC (or Extreme Fighting Championships) the current dogma was that grappling was king because it worked.

Strikers got taken down and submitted again and again.

Everyone went out to become the best grappler they could be, including strikers. The strikers figured out how to grapple and were then able to make grapplers play their game (think Mo Smith vs. Silveria or Smith vs. Coleman) and so grapplers had to up their striking game - a good high profile example is Gracie cross training in Hapkido with Master Noni.

We started seeing Gracie throw and trade alot more kicks to his opponents legs and mid section to set up his entry.

Yes but what you are talking about there Tom is people shifting within parameters that still remain within proven sports specific arts. When you start to throw things like trapping into the equation that is stepping outside of those parameters, and expanding for the sake of expansion.

If I coached a running team I'm sure that each of my athletes would work a little different, some would favour working with weights, some with resistance, some with sprints, some with endurance. If one of my team came and said "hey I want to run the next race on my hands, just to see if I can expand my ability" I would say you do that, but in your own time and not on my team. It carries no benefit to your sport.

Thats my firm believe around trapping in terms of Combat Athletics. If I am wrong, then I would have to pose the question - why we haven't we seen it?

[Tant01]

Hehehehe....Sorry dude my grip slipped...

LMAO Don't buy it Tom... I'm not saying HE meant to hit you but some folks don't play nice (on purpose)

[Tom Yum]

Originally Posted by Michael Wright

Yes but what you are talking about there Tom is people shifting within parameters that still remain within proven sports specific arts. When you start to throw things like trapping into the equation that is stepping outside of those parameters, and expanding for the sake of expansion.

If I coached a running team I'm sure that each of my athletes would work a little different, some would favour working with weights, some with resistance, some with sprints, some with endurance. If one of my team came and said "hey I want to run the next race on my hands, just to see if I can expand my ability" I would say you do that, but in your own time and not on my team. It carries no benefit to your sport.

Thats my firm believe around trapping in terms of Combat Athletics. If I am wrong, then I would have to pose the question - why we haven't we seen it?

I'd have to respectfully disagree with the analogy of running on one's hands in comparison to adding trapping to the striking game. I would compare it to making a slight change to one's running technique - not changing the entire nature of the event. Trapping is just a tool used to negate your opponents strikes and help you land your own.

Why haven't we seen it?

1. I'd say that MMA, atleast in its stand-up game is still in its formative stages since the sport began in the early-90's and could evolve a little more.

The MMA competitors of 10 years ago have different skill sets than those of today. Fights were more style vs. style then and as we can see, its turned fighters upside down.

Randy Couture, the world-class wrestler that he is won one of his bouts against Chuck Liddell by knock out. Kimbo, the former wild bear-knuckle brawler won his first MMA bout with a textbook submission.

I believe there is youtube footage of former Karate champion, Joe Lewis integrating trapping into his game. Its more of a demonstration, but apparently he uses it as a tool while sparring full contact.

2. No one has accquired the skill and applied it.

The MMA crowd tends to come from a muaythai-boxing-jiujitsu base. That pretty much tells you the range of techniques one could expect - allbeit all fighters like to focus and get good at one particular range. As of the past few years, a few fighters have added fancier kicks into their training that helped them turn the tide or win their fight.

[Ghost]

i dont think you will see these side kicks and axe kicks making their way into MMA.
MMA standup is for the most part fairly weak in comparison to stand up systems that do little else such as boxing MT.
Although i dont have extensive MMA training i did spend a while at a couple of MMA gyms and i completely owned them in standup. this was at purebred if you dont know it you can look it up online i think.

Its more of a case of not knowing yet how to deal with certain things. Side kicks are not a great technique and i wouldnt start using them in the way cung le does. i think mma is in its early stages still but i think its ground game, from what i can tell is really advanced. standup it isnt doing much yet.

I mean look at the average mma fight in the stand up part of the fight, not exactly amazing skill is it.

as for trapping the answer is no. trapping doesnt make a great deal of sense and i dont think it ever will do.

[Tom Yum]

Originally Posted by Tant01

Hehehehe....Sorry dude my grip slipped...

LMAO Don't buy it Tom... I'm not saying HE meant to hit you but some folks don't play nice (on purpose)

Not a problem. I didn't like it, but it didn't deter me from continuing to the end of the session

[Michael Wright]

People do have the skill Tom, they just choose not to take a knife to a gun fight.

I've been involved in trapping and around trappers for over 16 years. I have stood across from many great trappers who have worked me over in sparring, and I have also personally used trapping in sparring against good fighters. I don't question that.

But here is the point, sparring is just that - sparring. When you move from sparring to combat you drop about 90% of your training repetiore, and resort to the primary tools that win fights, or at least keep you out of the hospital. Trapping, like some of the other cool things we all like to play with in sparring, stays in the gym. I'll state again, if I am wrong then I am yet to see the evidence. That is the great thing about combat sports - the myths die when the bell rings.

[Michael Wright]

And Tom my friend, with equal respect, if my you think my hands analogy was a bit thin, pulling old Joe Lewis out of the bag was pretty anorexic

[Tom Yum]

Originally Posted by Ghost

MMA standup is for the most part fairly weak in comparison to stand up systems that do little else such as boxing MT.
Although i dont have extensive MMA training i did spend a while at a couple of MMA gyms and i completely owned them in standup..

I know what you mean. In some areas, MMA stand up is lacking and I've experienced the same - but it depends on the gym really. I'd wager that MMA fighters who train at Fairtex are rock solid in there stand up game.

Originally Posted by Ghost

i think mma is in its early stages still but i think its ground game, from what i can tell is really advanced. standup it isnt doing much yet..

Agreed. I made the exact same observation. MMA was built from the ground up, literally since that's where fights were originally won.

Originally Posted by Ghost

I mean look at the average mma fight in the stand up part of the fight, not exactly amazing skill is it. as for trapping the answer is no. trapping doesnt make a great deal of sense and i dont think it ever will do.

Its too early to tell and no one has brought the skill set into the octagon. It might not work, but we'll never know until someone works at it and uses it.

[Tom Yum]

Originally Posted by Michael Wright

People do have the skill Tom, they just choose not to take a knife to a gun fight.

And Tom my friend, with equal respect, if my you think my hands analogy was a bit thin, pulling old Joe Lewis out of the bag was pretty anorexic

Bring the knife and the gun to the fight. Rather have it and not need it, right?

Anorexic lol. She wasn't anorexic, atleast I don't remember her being so but she could move and was aloooot of fun!!

I know I couldn't put trapping to use since I don't have the experience, but I think its still up in the air, Mr. Wright.

Sort of like those preposterous heavier than air flying machines

[Tom Yum]

Michael, the conversation slid from sports to combat somewhere in the past few threads. I was talking about using trapping in combat sports (MMA) - not actual combat.

[Ghost]

trapping doesnt work mate, who has made it work ever?

its been around long enough to have had the chance to prove itself and it hasnt.

besides i dont see how something that ties you up as much as trapping does is going to be useful against an opponent where ground fighting is on the cards. doesnt make sense.

[Michael Wright]

Originally Posted by Tom Yum

Michael, the conversation slid from sports to combat somewhere in the past few threads. I was talking about using trapping in combat sports (MMA) - not actual combat.

Sorry if you misunderstood me Tom, but that is also exactly what I have been talking about - Combat Sports.

[Tom Yum]

Originally Posted by Ghost

besides i dont see how something that ties you up as much as trapping does is going to be useful against an opponent where ground fighting is on the cards. doesnt make sense.

Trapping as I understand it isn't part of the grappling range. Its used in punching and infighting range, correct?

I'm not sure trapping could be used during the grappling range? I don't know it to be usefull there - I think I've seen some guys try to use trapping when they were mounted to try and negate some ground and pound type attack, but I think that's using a tool outside of the range for what it was intended.

The idea would be to use trapping in an MMA match during a stand-up exchange to negate your opponents strike and land your own.

[Michael Wright]

Originally Posted by Tom Yum

Trapping as I understand it isn't part of the grappling range. Its used in punching and infighting range, correct?

I'm not sure trapping could be used during the grappling range? I don't think so.

The idea would be to use trapping in an MMA match during a stand-up exchange to negate your opponents strike and land your own.

There's always a danger (and I'm sure someone will pitch in soon) with the argument that grappling is trapping, because you are imobilisng your opponents limbs. But what you refer to Tom is what I believe we are discussing, the classical definition of trapping in hand range.

My argument centres around the fact that trapping and hitting is performing two tasks when you only need to perform one, just hit. If you are using your hands to trap with then you aren't using them to hit with, and in an arena where your stand up goal is to knock someone out, that is where the logic ends. We won't even go into the fine motor skill, timing and luck you need to pull it off. And I come back to my point - in an arena where anything that is surplus to requirement needs to be rendered obsolete - thats where trapping sits for me.

Jeez, Clubber Lang was right, I DO say the same thing over and over!

[Ghost]

Originally Posted by Tom Yum

Trapping as I understand it isn't part of the grappling range. Its used in punching and infighting range, correct?

I'm not sure trapping could be used during the grappling range? I don't know it to be usefull there - I think I've seen some guys try to use trapping when they were mounted to try and negate some ground and pound type attack, but I think that's using a tool outside of the range for what it was intended.

The idea would be to use trapping in an MMA match during a stand-up exchange to negate your opponents strike and land your own.

no im saying it leaves you totally open to take downs. it doesnt work on many levels, as michael points out above its a waste of energy and is inefficient.
why block, move, trap then hit when you can block and hit?

in the process it leaves you open, blindingly easy to counter if you dont play the trapping game as you can have a higher work rate.

add footwork and making trapping work becomes even less likely.


i personally cant see the point at which it becomes useful.