how much ground for the street?

[kiddbjj]

Hi guys

I'm sure we'd all agree that street attacks/scenarios would almost 100% start with people standing on their feet. Of course they can also go to the ground and obviously the more ground training you have the better off you will be; but I'm wondering for the street, what level of ground skill would one be advised to attain before deciding to really focus on the stand up stuff?

I ask this with busy people in mind. ie juggling fulltime work, family, home responsibilities; not just having as much time as you want to train.

What would be your opinion. A blue belt level of knowledge? Purple? More?

[kingoftheforest]

Originally Posted by kiddbjj

Hi guys

I'm sure we'd all agree that street attacks/scenarios would almost 100% start with people standing on their feet.

I'm not trying to start an argument but I want to point this out. Stats show you're right on this. The almost 100% start standing.

Originally Posted by kiddbjj

what level of ground skill would one be advised to attain before deciding to really focus on the stand up stuff?

My question is you know you're going to start standing up most likely. So why study the ground part, the less likely event first.

Before learning the stand up? Isn't that putting the cart before the horse?

I'm just curious as to weather this was just bad wording or if you were planning on doing it in this order?

[Uke]

Originally Posted by kingoftheforest

I'm not trying to start an argument but I want to point this out. Stats show you're right on this. The almost 100% start standing.

Mention another woman's name while you're sleeping and see if she'll bother to stand up before she starts beating the hell out of you. Sheesh.

Originally Posted by kingoftheforest

My question is you know you're going to start standing up most likely. So why study the ground part, the less likely event first.

Before learning the stand up? Isn't that putting the cart before the horse?

I'm just curious as to weather this was just bad wording or if you were planning on doing it in this order?

Its my understanding after reading 5 years worth of posts here that many people here believe the Gracie motto that 95% of fights go to the ground. Another telling point was made stating that 95% of self defense situations do not.

I think that because ground wrestling seems like a safer place to work from the majority of sport competitors seek to specialize in that range. The success of the guard is undeniable in BJJ and MMA events, and in MMA once someone gets rocked often times they seek safety in that place.

Learning basic escapes and reversals is just fine. What takes long about learning ground submission wrestling is being effective against someone else who does the same thing you do. Remember kiddbjj, in real violent situations you aren't trying to be competitive, you're trying to end it as quickly as possible without sacrificing your ability to see who is around and what is going on. That requires being able to get up quickly if you've been taken down. If one must specialize in any one aspect of ground submission wrestling for the purpose of street violence, I would say that would be it.

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by kiddbjj

Hi guys

I'm sure we'd all agree that street attacks/scenarios would almost 100% start with people standing on their feet. Of course they can also go to the ground and obviously the more ground training you have the better off you will be; but I'm wondering for the street, what level of ground skill would one be advised to attain before deciding to really focus on the stand up stuff?

I ask this with busy people in mind. ie juggling fulltime work, family, home responsibilities; not just having as much time as you want to train.

What would be your opinion. A blue belt level of knowledge? Purple? More?

How long have you been training now? Are you comfortable with the tools you have? You've developed a feel for the movements, you have trained your sensitivity to read his intent. You've become proficient with your timing and transitions and TRICKS and combination techniques... You can "flow" and adapt in full out randori?

Confident?

Keep playing...

In my humble opinion you really start learning around brown or black.

Those few that get to 3-4 Dan are usually awesome...

New tricks... If you have a grasp of the fundamentals of the (Gracie) ground game you might enjoy sambo or "combat" grappling. (or more Judo?)

"I'm wondering for the street, what level of ground skill would one be advised to attain before deciding to really focus on the stand up stuff?"

This seems almost backward for so called "self defense"... Generally speaking, once somebody hits the deck the fight is over.

Never too soon to learn striking and evasion skills. If you're worried about staying alive you need the right tools. Try to imagine grappling with a knife?
Or a gun? Does it seem counter productive? There is fair chance some kind of weapon will come into play, there is a fair chance a thug will have his buddy or a CREW to back him up...

They won't care what color your belt is.

[Uke]

Originally Posted by Tant01

This seems almost backward for so called "self defense"... Generally speaking, once somebody hits the deck the fight is over.

I don't know about that. That almost sounds like the hyperbole that jubaji accuses me of. People trip, get taken down, and slip on ice. That doesn't mean its over for them. It ain't over until it's over, and many men have recovered from finding themselves on their backs if they don't stay down there wrasslin'.

[Tant01]

There are always exceptions to the "rule"...

[kingoftheforest]

Let's agree that sometimes it happens, and sometimes it doesn't, but you should train and anticipate for both.

[kiddbjj]

hi guys

thanks for the awesome replies so far.

Basically I have already been doing BJJ for 5 years or so and am a blue belt, so for me I'm already in a situation where I am learning the ground as my base. For obvious reasons like so many other BJJ people that they saw Royce do his thing back in the early UFCs, plus BJJ is somewhat addicitive.

Previously I trained kung fu but this was essentially a forms and fitness style; very challenging and disciplined training; but yes essentially not geared for fighting even though we did some sparring and bag/pad work. Whilst there were some great techniques on offer the style fell into the trap that many kung fu schools do of trying to be too many things at once.

But anyway....since doing BJJ I have realised the limitations as far as street defence go. Simply put my BJJ school (and most others I have seen) spend the vast majority of time working ground stuff, with a smidgen of standing grappling. The assumption is that the fight will go to the ground anyway so might as well do all your training there. I think this has some merit, & I know that I would be able to quickly sweep or reverse most ppl with no ground training very quickly (ie. simple elevator or hooks sweeps). But of course it overlooks the fact that realistically, on the street the last place I want to go is the ground unless I know for damn sure that its a one on one (and how can you ever be really sure of that if someone is attacking you?!)

Just the other day I was walking through the city and all I can say is that I could 'feel' my vulnerability as a grappler when I thought about what I could respond if set upon by a group of people. ie. how would I open my defence/attack using my BJJ skills. The best I could think of was arm drags to back choke and then using that person as a shield while I surveyed for an escape route OR arm drag to the persons back and then just ripping them backwards to the floor by their shoulders or head. I would be extremely reluctant to use any kind of shoot in a crowded situation for the simple reason that if you get tied up you might not be able to get back up in time for others joining the fray. I guess the other advantage that BJJ would offer is the ability to escape quickly back to my knees (and then feet) from the floor so this is a plus on the street I think. But then this still leaves me on my feet with little weapons. The other problem is that my BJJ offence is primarily built around the guard so I have developed the habit of going there (not good for street).

So yeah...proabably my ground game is sufficient for the street but I really love ju jitsu and wan't to continue it for many years. But I also think it would be wise to supplement in some way to round out street defence.

What would be your recommendations on this? What would provide the most time efficient learning?

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by Uke

I don't know about that. That almost sounds like the hyperbole that jubaji accuses me of. People trip, get taken down, and slip on ice. That doesn't mean its over for them. It ain't over until it's over, and many men have recovered from finding themselves on their backs if they don't stay down there wrasslin'.

Escaping a burning building might be a good reason to be that low too. Stop, drop and roll... and shoot back while you do that.

The thing about being bipedal is that we move best on our feet. As awkward as it can be to stay upright it is our locomotive WAY...

When the bullets start flying... It might be "best" to lay low... Or move fast?

The situation, location and intent determine your course. I've said before that I like the bad guy(s) face down... doesn't always work that way but we all strive for some "ideal" outcome.

Self preservation is about making (good) choices in the worse possible situations. One of many reasons to practice deploying from positions of disadvantage.

[kingoftheforest]

Sounds like you have the basic idea down as to what you are looking for. Now you just have to find someone to train those ideas with.

It also sounds like you have a solid ground game, in your head and in practice.

As Tant and Uke both have advocated, practicing escaping holds would work to your advantage. I'm sure you do a lot of that now.

Might be time to look toward some stand up fighting not so much grappling, to fill in the holes.

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by kiddbjj

hi guys

thanks for the awesome replies so far.

Basically I have already been doing BJJ for 5 years or so and .....

I have realised the limitations as far as street defence go. Simply put ...

my ground game is sufficient for the street but I really love ju jitsu and wan't to continue it for many years. But I also think it would be wise to supplement in some way to round out street defence.

What would be your recommendations on this? What would provide the most time efficient learning?

Judo. (all of it) Newaza is good fun but learn some throws and atemi to go with your ground game.

I'm sure you learned to catch a kick and sweep the supporting foot?

That's good judo. Think ww2 combatives or jujutsu... (it's all judo to me)

Try your randori with two or three on one! LOL Throw a knife or stick in there and mix it up!

Stay safe.

[kiddbjj]

hi again

I see your point about judo but I unfortunately most judo schools (at least round here) only teach the Olympic version. And aside from that I'm happy at the school I'm at. They offer boxing, thai boxing, BJJ, wrestling and MMA. All by reputable and experienced coaches.

I guess my question/uncertainty is around how to fill out the street aspect of my abilities. Eg. Would it be better to supplement my BJJ with MMA (allowing me to build on skills I already have) OR to jump to the complete other end of the spectrum and train boxing or muay thai where I will be very much a beginner again. I have no problem with being a beginner (in terms of ego) but wonder if its better to build on what I have in a way that integrates the old with the new, rather than learning something that stands alone as a distict style ie boxing/muay thai.

I guess this is a question of integration.

But still would it not be taking a long road to go with MMA that only spends two thirds of the time working striking and clinch, as opposed to Muay Thai which spends 100% of time on this.

I'm probably over analysing this whole thing too much but this is because I only have a finite opportunity to train time wise; so want to make use of the the most efficient learning.

Thoughts?

[Bjjexpertise@be]

As far as I'm concerned you can never really be too good at any one thing . In my opinion, I'd say that if you can at the very least grapple with someone far bigger than you in class and successfully pull off escapes you should not have to worry about grappling on "t3h streets".
You don't want any street confrontation lasting any longer than it has to, standing or on the ground, successfully decking someone to stun them and running or escaping someone who's on top of you and running are probably all you need.

Grappling skills definitely come in handy, some situations can definitely be followed up for a quick joint break or choke hold that could stop the fight right then and there, etc. For example, someone could try to start a fight with me in a bar and I could rock him with a punch and decide to follow up with an Osoto-Gari to slam him to the ground, end of fight.

Grappling and Striking both have their time and place so you should keep practicing both .

[TTEscrima]

The best thing to hit people with is the Earth, Judo is an excellent tool to teach you the skills you'll need to accomplish it.

[jubaji]

Originally Posted by Uke

ground wrestling seems like a safer place to work from .

Why is that? Haven't you been saying the opposite for years?