Guns.. another weapon for modern MA?

[Mako]

OK, let's not turn this into a "pro/anti" gun debate, but here's the question.

Is the gun another weapon to be used by the modern martial artist? If we study classical weapons, and look at them in their "defense" context, are modern weapons any more than an extension of that practice?

While I realize there is little esoteric value in learning to shoot, one of my primary reasons for MA is to defend myself, and my family. To that end, I own, and train with a weapon that will allow me to protect myself, my wife, and my 2 little girls in a very effective and efficient manner.

Example: I live in a 2 story house, with an alarm. If any window or door is open, the internal alarm sounds (steady tone, not loud). I sleep with a shotgun (WITH trigger guard) next to my bed. (for those gun nuts, it's a combat handled 12 guard pump, shells are alternated, 1 .00 buck, 1 slug, next .00 buck, etc.)
If the "bad guy" wants to stay downstairs and steal me blind, so be it, i'll call the cops, and stay upstairs. HOWEVER, the only way upstairs to the REAL treasures (my family) is up a long flight of straight stairs, right past my bedroom. My thought is this, it's a gauntlet. No way do I miss a 2' wide space with a shotgun.

Yes, I study MA as well, for times when I don't/can't use a gun. However, the though of attempting a takedown, or trying to go hand to hand w/an intruder who has shown the disregard to acutally come up the stairs isn't in my/my families best interest.

I'm interested to hear other opinions. (either that, or we can go back to debating Rickson/Ken Shamrock... your call!)

[aikidoka]

paintball=gun sparring

[klif]

I don't like the alternating slugs and buckshot. In the heat of battle you will not remember which round is next. Slugs are a specialty round for acurate fire, sort of a short range rifle. I don't see a need for slugs inside a home. If you practice and learn the pattern of your barrel with a specific round you can do hostage shoots with buckshot. My carry shotgun has federal OO buckshot in the tube loaded one down and a sidesaddle holder with six one ounce slugs. I have the buckshot at the ready but if I need to make an acurate shot I can simply slip one in the tube, work the action and it's ready.

The best thing you can do to your shotgun is attach a light to it.

Oh and you can miss with a shotgun. I am living proof. A guy missed me with two shots of 12 guage #1 buckshot at about 20 yards and he had a 26" barrell 870 (didn't do my car a hell of a lot of good though). A standard 18" barrel will pattern about 1" per yard. That is really not a very wide pattern when you are fighting inside a house against a moving target.

[vortrex]

wouldn't slugs in a house be bad? you don't want it exiting a wall and killing the old lady next door or something. I have a .410 mossberg security with pistol grip. vertical pump and spreader tip. it's very small and light. won't kill the people next door if I miss and hit some drywall. people say .410 is wimpy, but I wouldn't want to get hit by it at short distance.

[SweepEm]

Hey Mako, if you want, next time you come into town, I can take you to a range and we can do some target shooting. I have quite a few peestols

[Mako]

Sweep,

I'll definitely take you up on the offer. BJJ class, churrascaria, followed by shooting handguns. Man, it's the Testostorone Triple Crown!!! LOL!


As far as the buckhot/slug load. I've timed (I know, i'm a freak) how long it takes to get up the stairs. The second shot should be at almost point blank range. The staircase is so narrow and straight, I can't imagine not hitting a guy at that range.

My father is a retired police chief, and he recommended the shotgun. Not only is it great in that type of space, but the sound of the pump should have a nice psychological effect. (then again, seeing a laser dot on your chest might work too!)

[Ryu (non-working password]

I think if you neglect gun awareness, experience, and marksmanship, then you can't call yourself a "reality" fighter.

Guns should be up there with any MA weapon.

Ryu

[sccr06]

I agree. Guns a a neccessity in today's world of crime and violence but I don't know if I would use a shotgun in the house.

Granted you are going to blast apart anyone in that stairway but I would think the risk of collateral damage would be too great, especially if you are using slugs.
Personally, I have a Walther PPK. I have Hyrdashock rounds loaded for use in the house. They have good stopping power against any intruder but considering the .380 caliber, chances are good it won't go through the wall and kill someone I don't want to kill.
Just a thought, but I try to stay away from high penetration rounds for in-home defense.

[John Bennett]

Originally posted by klif
Oh and you can miss with a shotgun. ...A standard 18" barrel will pattern about 1" per yard. That is really not a very wide pattern when you are fighting inside a house against a moving target.

That's true.

Many years ago I bought a Mossberg ATP500 with a pistol grip for home defense, mostly becuase I thought it looked cool all chopped down.

I was surprised when I went out to practice with the thing that I could barely hit a tree at 15 feet. They don't "spray" like I thought they did. 1" spread per yard @ 15' = like a 6 or 7 inch pattern.

I wised up and bought a shoulder stock for it. Not as handy, but at least I could hit a guy down the length of my hallway.

[edro]

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[SweepEm]

If you want to talk about testerone producing rushes or stimulation to produce some blood gushing erections:

in Las Vegas, at many gun ranges, you can rent a FULLY automatic sub machinegun.

I saw on TV years ago that you could rent many different models.
The next trip I went on, which of course, was a bachelor party....(heh heh) we went over to the nearest gun range and I picked out the one gun that I have always dreamed about shooting, an H & K MP5 9mm. submachine gun.
The weapon of choice for most SWAT teams, the Secret Service and the Department of Justice (and probably many more law enforcement agencies).
The MP5 is chosen for it's accuracy and firepower.

I knew quite a bit about machine guns, yet when I went to the range, there were a few there that I had no idea who manufactured them. I wanted to check out every machine gun they had, but it was absolutely packed. There was a Soldier of Fortune Magazine trade show at the Convention Center, where they had a booth and was giving out free passes to their range. And the fact that they had one porn starlet in the back, posing topless for polaroids.........but that is a whole 'nother story..............heh heh......

[Mik_36]

I like slugs but then again I'm a bit of a nut. But these guys are right about the collateral damage thing.

But hey it is your house and your situation, each man knows his own situation the best and how to protect his family the best, it is really a personal thing.

For all we know this guy lives on a farm or in a nieghbourhood with brick houses.

Ya if you live in like an old apartment made of wood you might not want to shoot at the intruder with shotgun slugs, but hey, it does not sound like that is your situation.

Good luck,

Any other NRA members present here, sounds like most of you guys might be.

Fight on to keep our rights!

See ya later

[Newbie]

How effective of a manstopper can a twelve gauge be if it is loaded with birdshot in terms of shooting at an intruder in the same room at a maximum range of 10 yards? Can the spread value outweigh the loss in knockdown power as compared to a slug in this situation?

[John Bennett]

I read studies that recommended #4 in 3 inch magnums. That's what I run.

The pellets are about the same size as the BB's for a BB gun. With #4 you're putting a lot more individual projectiles downrange. The odds of hitting a major artery or nerve center increase at the expense of penetration.

Of course in an apartment or suburban environment you don't want too much penetration.

[duchman]

i don't understand why you americans like youre gun's so much??
what is so cool about shooting and killing??