Current "streetfighting" opinion?

[Right Hooker]

Used to lurk here a long time ago. At one point, someone posted something to the effect that the key technical skills for realistic combat are basically the following (I don't recall who it was or the exact wording but it was a good enough post that I modified my training to some degree because of it);

Striking range-Western boxing and Muay Thai
Clinching range-Muay Thai "neck grab", the "over and under" tieup, the "arm and neck" tieup, the BJJ body clinch
Grappling-Double leg, Shoot to a clinch (BJJ-style), Judo-style trips, sprawling, NHB groundwork ala Sperry

This view was basically agreed to with only minor dissention as best I can remember. My question to you guys, who are much more on the ball than me at this point, is ;

Has this opinion changed? Does this about sum it up or I am I missing something?

[Twisted up]

It's still pretty much the same!

I believe that if you follow Matt Thornton's advice and train the 3 ranges (stand-up, clinch and ground) appropriately and understand the basic strategies for each, that will provide the foundation for effective combat.

If you've not seen Matt's tapes, you might want to do that. They really provide a glimpse of what you're talking about. Check out their website (Straight Blast Gym)



John

[Rob B]

Striking range-Muay Thai, some boxing
Clinching range-Muay Thai, Greco Roman Wrestling
Grappling- Free-Style wrestling, NHB groundwork, BJJ Guard (just in case)

[Maxximus]

Striking range: Shotokan Karate with crosstraining in Dim Mak
clinch: SAA (Segal American Aikido), Dux Ryu Ninjitsu
ground: Ettish Fetal Fighting, Drunken Monkey Kung fu

This seems to be the general consensus nowadays...

[Underdog]

oh damn, I hate to say that, but the vast majority of you guys had NEVER fight on the streets...

Otherwise you've had recognized as an absolute truth that "techniques" or the PHYSICAL game, is what count less.

To be succesful at streetfighting you must have:

1. A complete and detailed knowledge of you sourroundings, either in the physical sense (ground, escape routes, improvised weapons pertaining the place where you think you will fight, obstacles etc.)and in the social sense (friends of you opp, gangs, hierarchy of the neighborhood, and above all YOUR PLACE in the hierarchy).

2.A paranoic approach to life, ever thinking that you will get assaulted. Minimize the chance of being taken by surprise and you will score half a victory.

3.Be a gray man. Never stand out in every sense. If you choke someone on the streets and he will die gagging in his vomit, guess who the people will search? (hint: the one with the BRAZILIAN JIUJITSU shirt....).

3.ALWAYS,ALWAYS,ALWAYS,ALWAYS have an ace in the hole. Either in the physical sense (a gun in the ankle or in the pocket, a blade hidden, a brass knuckle, two guns on your girlfriend purse, whatever...)and in a social sense (having at hand a gang tha will avenge you it's a grat plus...)

There's infinitely more, but trust me, that are the basics..

[Hookah Smokin Caterpillar]

Originally posted by Underdog
(friends of you opp, gangs, hierarchy of the neighborhood, and above all YOUR PLACE in the hierarchy).

Brilliant point. I will not fight some people that live around me that I know with or without BJJ I can take because of the crap I'll go through afterwards. I'm not a gangster or a guy with lots of friends. Sure some of my friends know how to fight but thats only 3 of us vs. God knows how many people will get against us

[Ryu (non-working password]

Heh heh,

Gotta know how to keep your emotions in check during that kind of thing as well. Lots of people freeze, or get so tense and angry, that they make stupid mistakes.
Where have you been Underdog?

Ryu

[Underdog]

I've been busy at work lately, but now I'm back in track.

Right now I'm training my ass off, I have the infamous "belt examination" coming at the end of july, and I MUST be in shape to kickass there. Next week I will start my steroid cycle, hoping to cut weight also.

[aseepish]

Originally posted by Underdog
3.Be a gray man. Never stand out in every sense. If you choke someone on the streets and he will die gagging in his vomit, guess who the people will search? (hint: the one with the BRAZILIAN JIUJITSU shirt....).

Hmmmm... My guess would be the guy with vomit on his shirt.

-T

[Bau]

Totally agree with Underdog...
Ryu's got a good point too ...gotta have the mental toughness...
whats the point if you train your ass off and freeze when the time comes to use those skills..

Plus I dont see how training in those few positions will really help much....yeah they will help you to some exent but you gotta understand...in a street fight ....things will never go as you planned...I dont care how good a guard you have....if I pull out my knife and start stabbing away at you......guess who ends up the winner...
I dont think you can sum up what techniques work best for whatever...in the ring yes but not for the street...

anyways...in most street fights...technique usually goes out the window...raw emotion ..um rage usually takes over and you just get guys swinging away..
You HAVE to keep cool emotionally to be able to use your skills..
Its also about who has the bigger will to SURVIVE or
who has more "guts" as my dad would say..alot of trained guys get their asses kicked by experienced brawlers just cos of the brawlers mindset and attitude...not his skills..

Anyways...fighting on the street is too dangerous
and I dont think you can EVER train enough for it....just have to HOPE that what you trained will be enough to get you out of trouble..

walking away is always the best solution....if you cant...then running is better...If you cant run....then you figure it out.....

[Right Hooker]

Thanks Twisted and Rob-as I was looking more for info re. any technical "truths" that have come to light in NHB that may be applicable in a streetfight. I know, NHB is a sport, but NHB and NHB-related training methodology can provide you with skills applicable to a fight. Thanks for the Thronton stuff (too bad his instruction is cost prohibitive). Guess I'll buy the Henderson tapes-haven't bought instructional tapes in a long time. By the by, guys, I am a LEO and a DT instructor and am working with my agency to implement some more realistic tactics. As a young man and juvie I was involved in about 6-8 streetfights-won some lost some. I have been involved in hundreds of arrests, only half a dozen or so that have gone bad-but I think I have a pretty good idea of the street and what it takes tactically and mentally to stay alive-nobody is perfect and everbody makes mistakes, but I do my best-I'll chime in from time to time. Thanks again.

[Twisted up]

Right Hooker:

One more thing (or maybe several): The way that Matt T. looks at it is; develop your 'sport game' and the self-defense aspects are a sort-of by-product of this training. It's a matter of developing the attributes and this is pretty much what NHB fight training does for the individual. We know it isn't a "real" fight, but it is a "realistic" fight in that, our opponent/partner is trying to hit us BACK!!! That changes things dramatically needless to say.

When you have a good base in the boxing/stand-up range, you learn to add the Savate kicks and the straight blast. That "amps up" your street game quite a bit.

In the clinching range, you develop the ability to control position while adding strikes and takedowns. In the street, you can put in eye gouging and other "foul tactics". It is visceral to try and grab onto your opponent in a fight and understanding the mechanics behind the Greco-Roman clinch (and muay Thai clinch work) puts you way ahead of the game.

As for the ground, it's a matter again of developing your Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu ability and then adding the strikes of vale-tudo. This again develops attributes with emphasis on control positioning. Affter skill is developed, it's an easy matter to add the "fouling tactics". You simply MUST learn to be adaptible! If not, there will be a glaring weakness in your abilities!

One thing about BJJ ground fighting: In case anyone doesn't know; We're not going to just get a position and keep it, waiting for the opponent to make a mistake. That may happen in NHB, but the reality is, sometimes the ground fight happens. IF you go down, you go on YOUR terms and put in the fouling tactics IMMEDIATELY! You're not TRYING to get a submission, you're trying to SURVIVE! There is a difference. If you are tackled on the street, is it not better to have an understanding of the guard and escape skills in order to effectively fight back? I think so.

This is pretty much what Thornton's JKD tapes are about. It is VERY applicable to both NHB and street! I can't stress that enough.

I would recommend the purchase of the 3 tape series (series 1) if you haven't done so. They're really not that expensive and provide the best base of knowledge for "Reality fighting" that I've yet seen on video!

As for the nature of "street self-defense", IMO it's largely a myth. People simply don't attack empty-handed anymore and I'm sorry, but there isn't ANY style on the planet that will EVER even the odds in that situation.

Just recently in Tennessee, an immigrant from the Sudan was stabbed in the chest in an argument over a PARKING SPACE! That's reality.

It's better to train hard in the gym so that one's ego doesn't "pull your strings" enough to make you get into those arguments in the FIRST place! This isn't directed at you Right Hooker, or anyone else for that matter. It's just the facts.


Good Luck!

John W. Kogas

[DanInNeckaha]

Good point Hookah. You have to be able to look down the road. You might win this initial confrontation only to get jumped by some scumbag buddies of his next week. It is best to steer clear of scummy types, you have no idea what criminal or cowardly crap they will resort to to get to you.

I would think it would be boxers and wrestlers which would be the best street fighters. Boxers are used to hitting and getting hit. They also have combos drilled into their head that will come up on reflex. The wrestler will get the guy down and keep the superior position. He may not get a lot of damage in but he will at least stay in control until it gets broken up. Boxers or wrestlers probably won't impress with their repertoire of moves but they will be effective with their well drilled basics.

[Twisted up]

DanInNeckaha: Excellent points!

It's the guys that actually do the countless drilling and sparring that are going to be the guys who come out on top in a fight. That's the boxers, wrestlers and jiu-jitsu guys (yes, BJJ guys).

Just imagine if those guys were to CROSS-TRAIN!! WOOO! What a fighter that would make!


John

[Bau]

yes...those guys will come out on top in a fight...assuming your opponent knows NOTHING about fighting..

Then again...thats usually the case...hehe drunk losers..

Yeah Twisted up...its sad how people can pull a knife over something like that...sad but true...