BJJ as a Chess Game

[GuardMaster]

My interest in BJJ is almost purely as a chess games. Not self defense, or the ability to kick someones ass but rather to manipulate their mind in a sophisticated game of chess that leads to a final submission.

My question for the forum is are there any good tapes sets on the market that present one with sophiticated moves, counters, and counters to those move, so that you stay one step ahead of your opponent. These moves must ALL be connected so that there is constant flow.

I don't mean simply, if he straightens his arm go for armbar! I mean elements of true chess based on forming a strategy depending on the opponent you face.

Eg. My opponent loves sweeps. I know he is good at two in particular. Instead of forcing an escape from his closed guard, perhaps I manipulate his mind by "morphing" into one of these off balanced positions to set him up. When he goes for the corresponding sweep (to which he thought I was making a mistake ) I have a counter set up and ready to pass his guard.

II believe all the top BJJ sport, submission grappling, and vale tudo fighters rely CONSTANTLY on baiting and waiting techniques, but refuse to show this level of technique on video.

I'm primarily interested in sport juijitsu and submission grappling. Remember what I descibed is not simply FLOW drill. But GIVING your opponent what he WANTS (eg goi off balance, leave opening for triangle, or give your arm, or give your back) so that you get what you want!

Juijitsu is not a fight. Juijitsu is a sophiticated game of chess.

I have Kukuk and Pedro tapes and in my opinion they are garbage. Why? Because they simply show moves in isolation. Not one integrated strategy for baiting and waiting. I know Royce relied alot of this baiting strategy in his NHB victories in early UFC's. Most laypeople just weren't smart enough to discover that every move he made what to LEAD an opponent. Now of course the competition has caught up. But regardless of his performance, few fighters are relying on the baiting strategy even at professional levels of competition. They're so to speak.. ONE STEP behind. Always reacting to their opponent.

Now the one weakness to this baiting stategy is that you ahve to know you opponent. Big deal.. Would you prepare for war without studying your opponent? No.. They why go about that in a competition.

My own natural sense of intellect guides me into using baiting tricks to get what I want. But i find that I'm spending too much time trying to innovate such movements. I wanna know if there any brazilians masters out their who are willing to show this stuff on tape? They needn't worry because they probably compete with counters to all of these moves if they're smart! But at least release tape sets with a strategy in place.

From what I see so far Sperry does a decent job in his tape sets but I'm afraid even he refuses to show enough of the baiting game. Perhaps these guys are just scared to lose by showing too much.

Any input?

[Hookah Smokin Caterpillar]

I think something like that would be kind of hard to teach especially in a tape situation where you can't ask questions. I think inventing and thinking of the manuevers on your own will make them more natural. I bait a lot of people to go for Triangles and Arm Bars on me when Im in their closed guards because I get stuck there. I can't pass once I get in the guard but before Im fully in there I can pass like a maniac. So I figured if someone goes for the arm bar I can pass and usually it works.

[GuardMaster]

Ok. Maybe I should post about what would make a killer tape set. World Martial Arts!!! Are you reading!!!?? All other tape manufactures pay attention!!!

Make tapeset as follows for sport JJ, Submission Fighting, and NHB:

Eg: Your opponent likes armbars
Show 10 ways to EXTEND your arm in a deceitful manner and 10 counters so that your in PLACE physcially and mentally to use your opponents greed to get something more powerful in the chess game. Like a better position, or a new submission.

Your opponent likes gi chokes.
- show 10 ways to give up your neck to opponents who love gi chokes and how your be able to turn to the tables to your favor with better positions and new submissions that lead off this.

Your opponent likes single legs
Your opponent likes to kick
etc etc etc You get the point!!!


This tape set could also be against street opponent tactics. Maybe your opponent likes headlocks. Do the same for this.

This is not a video of COUNTERS. This is a video set of SETUPS. Based on knowing what your opponent likes.

True there's risk involved in giving bait like armbars and your neck, but isn't it better KNOWING THE TIME that your opponent will attack (because you set him up) that waiting around and reacting to what your opponent does.

To simply this strategy, if man continued to chase mice by running around with a broomstick he would rely on athletics, timing, speed, sensitivity. But what of the guy who figured out what the mice liked, and set a trap. Sure you may lose the cheese but your submission in the end! Submission but neck crank

So all you tape producers out there. Assume your opponent has brains will you! Not to mention that you could make a million producing tape sets based on "intellect" and deception as opposed to athletics, timing and sensitivity.

Even Bruce lee spoke of this many year ago and in his wonderful book. Lets DRAW out opponents actions out. Sure we need to know what he likes because otherwise he may not take the bait, and we'll be waiting like a moron for something that never comes!

I've yet to know tapes produced by great strategists. They're all run of the mill guys who just market what they've been taught! I bet the machado guys know all that i'm referring to and so does the Gracies.

I wanna see tapes like this for Sport BJJ, SUb Grappling, and NHB. Imagine the joy of elading your opponent with every move, and have yhour counter waiting in place.

For those of us who like to think... this is the tapes we buy! So please satisfy the thinkers!!!

[Shrimp]

I am like you. Self defense is very important to me, but for me bjj is primarily a mental (rather than physical) activity. I think of my body being there only because my brain needs something to carry out its strategies in the physical realm.

As far as the "strategic approach" you're talking about, I would love to see tapes or seminars in that vein, but I never really have. Almost everything is just presentation of techniques.

Tape makers and seminar givers: this is a huge niche that no one has even begun to fill!

I've seen a lot of bjj tapes. Of those I've seen, Roy Harris's BJJ 101 comes the closest to describing the kinds of strategies you're looking for.

[Lacrymosa]

I remember once seeing an article by Roy Harris that addressed the issue of setting your opponent up. To grossly paraphrase, I believe he mentioned that the art of setting up an opponent doesn't become important in BJJ until around the brown belt level.

To be honest, every black belt I have spoken to (and I HAVE spoken to a few) insists that baiting and feigning is best utilized by someone who intimately understands the basics and demonstrates feel.

In short, I suppose they would suggest you pay your dues and keep rolling.

.....as if we didn't know....

[likuid]

at first i thought you were kidding...but Holy 'S'!!!! your post is toooooooooo long to be a joke. Look here, it's like Bruce Lee said, until there is a man with three arms, or some other physical difference, there are only so many ways to fight. With that said, once you put in your mat time, and learned the 'inventory' of BJJ, and embossed it into your muscle memory, then, your BJJ is only as cunning or intellectual as you are. It sounds to me like you are asking for a short cut. i.e. 'the video says to go for an armbar, but when i do, i can't get'...so your thinking you're not getting enough strategy, which might be partially true.......but, to quote someone from another discipline..."repitition is the mother of all skill" - through that you will develop the sensitivity to effectively work a strategy

[festiva]

id like to see some videos like that too but ..when i was newer to the art i would use fakes constantly use speed and distance because thats what a lot of fakes and setups needs but as the fighters become more experienced the game tightens and the better fighters dont think "how can i submit" but more " how can i upgrade my position" so to a less advanced bjjer that extended arm is a call to go for it but to a good bjjer its a call to use the threat to advance to a better position making so that like a funnel the opponents options diminish and diminish until THE SUBMISSION then becomes AN INEVITABLE CONCLUSION of the POSITION much like a check mate ..a mediocre fighter will go for everything presented to him ..others like royce gracie and joe moreira will wait all nite if their position isnt right and if their position is right then your not going to get out of it when they go for it ..so setups are great but way before this it is important to concentrate on proper positioning and the laws that govern it eventually thru experience.. alot of experience setup becomes a possibility but before that youll always get beat by someone with great basics id like to see some videos on the various positions a breakdown based on physics as to why they defeat other positions and what to look for when im attempting to weaken the opponents structural framework and what i can do to improve mine

[Lacrymosa]

Well, said, likuid.....

How many of us could consistently trap someone in a triangle during those first few sessions on the mat? While cupless in the first few BJJ lessons, how many of us could perform an armbar without crushing our nuts?

I heard Roy Harris remark once that as we progress through grappling, the game becomes smaller and smaller. The Chess/BJJ cliche' is an interesting comparison, but there are too many intangibles in the latter to formulate a "blueprint" of reliable counters and attacks for every situation.

[controllerzero]

I still crush my nuts.

[Hookah Smokin Caterpillar]

Thats funny

I wore a cup for the first time in my life last Monday and got an arm bar and I felt like I was gonna tap! Tried it again on Tuesday but gave up on it and now I'm back to the no cup system

[Lacrymosa]

Well,

I find that my genitals are most comforatble, armbarwise, when in the protective confines of a nut cup. HOWEVER, I'm slowly weaning my nuts from the cup.......and my progress is encouraging.....from a testicular point of view.

Hmmmm.....

New subject matter....to cup or not to cup.....

Who prefers a cup here? And who's nuts (like mine) are too delicate to risk grinding a strange elbow into them?

Do tell.

[Shrimp]

I wear a cup. Mostly to protect from stray knees, elbows, etc.

[controllerzero]

a couple of weeks ago the head of my, um, "unit" was squashed flatter than I would have ever imagined possible. It was bad enough I had to run to the bathroom and make sure it didn't split down the sides. I still got the armbar, and I still had sex that night. I haven't told my wife that story, she would make me start wearing the cup. It's just like in chess, though, sometimes you have to sacrafice a major playing piece to maneuver into checkmate.

[judo guy]

BJJ as a chess game?

Every once in awhile I choke the bishop. Does that count?

[Ryu (non-working password]

You guys always crush your nuts?

Don't you know how to do armbars correctly?

Ryu