Best way to learn BJJ

[GuardMaster]

There'a great deal of complexity to the BJJ game:

1) takedowns
2) guard + submissions and reversals
3) Mount + Submissions
4) Passing Closed, open, and half guard
5) Half guard to reversals
6) Advanced submissions from other positions

This only touches on the positions in BJJ, and didn't even mention knee on chest and others.

To try to learn all of this material in a short time may be counterproductive, so what do you think is the best order to learn the material in. As of late I've been tempted to think that 1), 2), 3) are the mount important for the first 2 years or so, and then beating the system using, 4), 5), and 6).

Anyone think that other orders are more conducive to learning? If i don't break it down into small segments the bjj puzzle becomes an enormous overload of info which makes learning very difficult.

guardMaster

[Lacrymosa]

The best place to start your training is definitely the escapes. Lack of technique in this area will shorten your "life expectancy" greatly.

When I started, I focused mostly on learning some escapes for mount, side mount, kesa gatame, back mount, etc. Given that I was rolling with guys much bigger than me, escapes were crucial.

Of course, it's nice to learn some submission to actually play the game, but if you'd ask any black belt, they'd insist the following: If you plan on mastering an aspect of your game, at the white-blue level, escapes are the priority.

[BIG BIRD]

Personally the last place you should go for takedowns is a bjj school. I mean who is fooled by that bullshit front kick followed by a trip anymore? That is so outdated,thats why Henderson KO'd REnzo. Henderson honestly shouldnt be able to carry Rezo's jock strap with a forklift,but because Renzo would go learn a proper takedown he was ko'd. I think you should learn takedowns from a wrestling coach and subs from a bjj guy,if you dont you will wind up like Renzo,KO'd by an average fighter.

[GuardMaster]

Lac:

Are escapes a must to learn or does it really show the mentality of a fighter? For example, an offensive player who has a good takedowns, good mount, annd good guard with 2-3 years grappling experience in these areas would probably tap many equally matches competitiors out. His mindset is offense. Winning.

A defensive minded fighter may rely so much on escapes during those first few years that his mindset is defensive. What to do if mounted, what to do if he passes guard, what to do.. blah blah blah.

My karate instructor (a helluva long time ago) was teaching very defensive techniques., focusing on self defense not winning. On the other hand my instructor moni aizik at Samurai club (the club in toronto that spawned Carlos Newton) taught mainly offense. And he demonstrated this by constantly tapping out the students with 2-3 years experience or less without being caught in bad positions.

So I think first we must agree what the mindset is, survival or WINNING. I'm talking sport competition not street.

GuardMaster

[GuardMaster]

Lac: When was the last time a world champion grappler got mounted and when on to win. Or had their guard passed and still got it back? It seems to me that unless your fighting non grapplers defense is not the best strategy. Against someone who is as skilled as you it comes down to not making mistakes, and concentrating on an offensive attack to end the match.

[Lacrymosa]

Your first experience rolling with a blue belt will show you the importance of escapes. Starting with BJJ, that was my initial problem. I was well-versed in Judo and could throw most of the people that we tapping me on the ground. BUT, I wasn't nearly competitive with them until I learned to escape holds. Even the white belts with 3 months of BJJ (to my 7 years of Judo) escaped every pin I attempted.

To gain a submission, you must first have the opportunity. With a great foundation in escapes, you'll find that more and more opportunities will be available. There are many aspects to BJJ: submission, transition, escapes, control, etc.......early in the game, I feel escapes is most important.....as being frequently trapped in a poor position is the most frustrating part of being a white belt.

I'm not an expert and I'm not exceptionally good at BJJ, but I'm just drawing off my experiences in the last 5 years. I learned that I wasn't confident in any part of my game until my escapes started improving.

UFC IX Superfight - Dan Severn vs. Ken Shamrock - Severn, of course was an animal when it came to takedowns, but somehow, Shamrock (not nearly the takedown artist that Severn is) ended up mounting Severn, much to everyone's surprise. Severn obviously did his homework and escaped the mount, after defending for a few minutes.....an example of a superior takedown master needing an adequate foundation in escapes.

[GuardMaster]

Thanks for the input Lac! Some good advice there.... That Roy Harris dude is one for positional escapes. I know he teaches a lot of that -- But I wonder how ahead he is in the BJJ game in terms of winning compared to other black belts in BJJ.

My point is there's sooooo much to learn. The question is what translates the most to the winning submission!

But point well taken, learning some escapes, espcially against beginner grapplers is worthwhile, but I wouldn't make it my speciality unless I was thinking self defense, not sport grappling (which has its emphasis on submission unlike the street where the object is to live)

Guardmaster

[Lacrymosa]

I guess it IS a matter preference, realistically. Some people are going to prefer to focus on takedowns/submission more. That's the nice part about BJJ. No two BJJ Practitioners are the same. Some will specialize more in takedowns, while others are wizards at chokes and armlocks. I happen to focus the majority of my time on escapes.......but not for self defense, to be honest. I find that my survival probability greatly increases when I don't sweat getting trapped in the mount for minutes at a time.

[KenJeet]

Just remember, Quick to Learn, Quick to Forget...Slow to Learn Slow, to Forget

[jubaji]

dickhardman seems to have re-registered with multiple screen names.

[jubaji]

Originally Posted by BIG BIRD

Personally the last place you should go for takedowns is a bjj school. I mean who is fooled by that bullshit front kick followed by a trip anymore? That is so outdated,thats why Henderson KO'd REnzo. Henderson honestly shouldnt be able to carry Rezo's jock strap with a forklift,but because Renzo would go learn a proper takedown he was ko'd. I think you should learn takedowns from a wrestling coach and subs from a bjj guy,if you dont you will wind up like Renzo,KO'd by an average fighter.

This is a good point.

[blanker]

Originally Posted by BIG BIRD

Personally the last place you should go for takedowns is a bjj school. I mean who is fooled by that bullshit front kick followed by a trip anymore? That is so outdated,thats why Henderson KO'd REnzo. Henderson honestly shouldnt be able to carry Rezo's jock strap with a forklift,but because Renzo would go learn a proper takedown he was ko'd. I think you should learn takedowns from a wrestling coach and subs from a bjj guy,if you dont you will wind up like Renzo,KO'd by an average fighter.

i would agree with you on everything except hendo being an average fighter.
defo learn to wrestle from a wrestling coach and theres alot to be said for judo. aswell alot of the reaps and trips work against wrestling throws for instance major reaps work well against single leg takedowns and minor reaps work well against table throws.

as for what to learn first i always found how to hold the positions correctly and how to escape them and move betwean them are the best things to teach as your not going to get subs against someone more advanced then you when rolling anyway and if you know the basic positions its easier to learn the subs and escapes as you understand the foundation.

[pstevens]

BJJ is confusing to the beginner because it seems there's so much to learn (so much in terms of techniques); but the truth is that at the higher levels, you use less and less techniques and more instinct from training. Veteran BJJers have a core set of techniques that are tried and true for them and they slowly refine them, add to them, or tweak them to improve/improvise.

For many instructors, the roadmap is as follows:

1. Escapes
2. Control & takedowns
3. Submissions
4. Counters

It's a safe route that encourages the student to understand the major facets of BJJ. Sure, it's great if you're an awesome, offensive fighter, but what happens when you meet someone more ferocious? YOU NEED DEFENSIVE TRAINING IN EVERY ART!

As far as takedowns are concerned, a few years ago I would agree that they were weak in BJJ schools, but not today. Almost every BJJ school I've been to in America, had wrestling instructors, MMA guys who knew how to wrestle or BJJ guys who trained wrestling takedowns.

[hybridmartial]

Originally Posted by Lacrymosa

The best place to start your training is definitely the escapes. Lack of technique in this area will shorten your "life expectancy" greatly.

When I started, I focused mostly on learning some escapes for mount, side mount, kesa gatame, back mount, etc. Given that I was rolling with guys much bigger than me, escapes were crucial.

Of course, it's nice to learn some submission to actually play the game, but if you'd ask any black belt, they'd insist the following: If you plan on mastering an aspect of your game, at the white-blue level, escapes are the priority.

Agreed hehhe