What is the diffrence with BRAZILIAN JUJITSU AND JAPANESE JUJITSU?

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by DJColdfusion

Judo and Jiu-Jitsu (the Brazilian style) are two completely different arts whether or not BJJ finds its roots in pre-Olympic Judo or not. Just as Judo is not JJJ even if it finds its roots in JJJ.

Calling Judo watered down Jiu-Jitsu or referencing it as incomplete would be insulting.

Referencing BJJ as "Judo newaza" is an attempt to marginalize the entire art by inferring its very existence as unnecessary or irrelevant . . . which is, to be as eloquent as I possibly can, simply bullshit.

You seem very defensive (almost insecure) about this topic?
Perhaps there is more missing than you care to admit?

When I say that BJJ/GJJ is Judo newaza I say it with great respect for that STYLE of judo. It is the highest compliment I can give it. There is nothing wrong with a grappling art on that level. I enjoy rolling with those guys.

My gripe is that because so few recognize the OLD SCHOOL judo the famous brazilian family can pass it off as the latest greatest thing...They have preserved a great part of Kodokan Judo that might otherwise be left to kosen alone...

I don't see it the way most folks do but then I'm old... and slow.

I probably forgot more judo than I know?

You have no reason to be so defensive...

[jubaji]

Originally Posted by Tant01

You seem very defensive (almost insecure) about this topic?
Perhaps there is more missing than you care to admit?...

Yeah, you usually see his kind of attitude among wing chun folks...

[Hardball]

Originally Posted by jubaji

Yeah, you usually see his kind of attitude among wing chun folks...

His profile does not say Wing Chun; it says "Too many to list and BJJ". Can you say Red Flag? LOL

[jubaji]

Hmmmmmmm...

[The_Judo_Jibboo]

Originally Posted by DJColdfusion

Referencing BJJ as "Judo newaza" is an attempt to marginalize the entire art

no, it's an attempt to be accurate. I've said numerous times myself that Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu would much more accurately be called Brazilian Judo.

[/quote]by inferring its very existence as unnecessary or irrelevant . . . [/quote]

of course it isn't. The techniques of Judo can be found in their modified forms in jjj. theoretically, you could learn everything judo has to offer in the framework of jjj. but a guy who trains judo for a short amount of time is going to be a much better grappler than a jjj guy who trained for the same amount of time divided between striking and grappling. same goes for groundwork between judo and bjj. the bjj guy who's been training as long as the judo guy will have an advantage on the ground.

if anyone ever says that it's unnecessary or irrelevant to focus on the specific aspect of combat that you are interested in and train it like hell, i'll be right there with you, but no one did. you're looking for fights that aren't there.

[DJColdfusion]

Originally Posted by The_Judo_Jibboo

no, it's an attempt to be accurate. I've said numerous times myself that Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu would much more accurately be called Brazilian Judo.

Why call it Judo when Maeda called it Jiu-Jitsu and in fact so did Kano in the early years? I appreciate your opinion; however, even if it was Judo (which it isn't and if you truly researched the art you would understand that) why would anyone change the name that the art was given by Maeda and adopted by Carlos Gracie Sr. before he began to teach his brothers???

Originally Posted by The_Judo_Jibboo

of course it isn't. [1]The techniques of Judo can be found in their modified forms in jjj. theoretically, you could learn everything judo has to offer in the framework of jjj. but a guy who trains judo for a short amount of time is going to be a much better grappler than a jjj guy who trained for the same amount of time divided between striking and grappling. same goes for groundwork between judo and bjj. the bjj guy who's been training as long as the judo guy will have an advantage on the ground.

if anyone ever says that it's unnecessary or irrelevant to focus on the specific aspect of combat that you are interested in and train it like hell, i'll be right there with you, but no one did. you're looking for fights that aren't there.

[1] Or, more accurately, the techniques of JJJ can be found in their modified forms in Judo. Every martial art we have today has grown out of or evolved from another martial art. And just because one art has grown out of another art why would we force the name for the parent art upon the child art? Additionally, just because one art has grown out of another art does not mean that the child art is lacking or a lesser art in some way. Is Judo a pale shadow of JJJ? No. Is Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu a pale shadow of Judo? No.

[jubaji]

Very, very defensive...

[SamuraiGuy]

As someone who does both, and likes them equally, I'll say that while they are similar and that, there are some differences.

Tanto I dont believe your statement that everything in BJJ can be found in Kodokan Judo, new techniques have been invented, etc....

I doubt you'd find a PERUvian choke in Judo (no one at Judo had ever seen it), but I was taught that in BJJ, I doubt you'd find the Brabo choke in Judo (something very similar to an arm triangle or anaconda choke yet still a different choke)

I doubt you'd even find the x-gaurd or de la riva gaurd in Judo.

With that said BJJ doesnt have nearly the same amount of throws, or NEAR EVEN REMOTELY CLOSE to the quality of throws of Judo.

Not only the throws but the pins as well, this is often neglected to be seen as a value of Judo, Judoka still see it, but most people think Judo has better throws, BJJ has better ground. Many people neglect the pins.

The strength and weakness of each art is that they usually focus solely on one or the other, this is why I have tapped out Judo Blackbelts (4th dan is the highest so far), and thrown BJJ brown belts. (Only blackbelt I know is also very good at standup, both judo and wrestling). This isnt to say that I didnt get my ass handed to me in Randori after tapping the blackbelt out, or being choked about 10 seconds after we hit the ground when I threw the BJJ brown.

It's all about doing both, even at the Judo school I go to, the head instructor is also a BJJ brown, and they spend about 45 mins of every 2 hour class on ground work, techniques and sparring. Yet Judo still limits them in this, they know nothing about passing the gaurd, or even plain posture and defense, because in Judo they dont need it, the instructor knows it, they spend time on Newaza but it still suffers. They just lack something in their ground training that I cant explain, but it really does suffer.

With that said... Tachi-Waza is much much harder to pull off against anyone close to the same size or god forbid bigger than you, than Newaza is, I'd say its about 10X harder to throw a person than it is to sweep them, etc.

Anyway, thats my ... thoughts.. I guess.

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by SamuraiGuy

As someone who does both, and likes them equally, I'll say that while they are similar and that, there are some differences.

Tanto I dont believe your statement that everything in BJJ can be found in Kodokan Judo, new techniques have been invented, etc....

I doubt you'd find a PERUvian choke in Judo (no one at Judo had ever seen it), but I was taught that in BJJ, I doubt you'd find the Brabo choke in Judo (something very similar to an arm triangle or anaconda choke yet still a different choke)

I doubt you'd even find the x-gaurd or de la riva gaurd in Judo.

......Anyway, thats my ... thoughts.. I guess.

Many years ago a humble 4th dan explained to me that in Judo there is a bent arm lock and a straight arm lock...

Does this mean that there are only two armlocks in Judo? No, there are variations of each TYPE of armlock.

You can perform the Ude garami (bent arm lock with your arms) on your opponent standing up or on the deck, if he is face up or face down on the deck. If you are above or below.... Does EACH variation become it's own technique or is it the function of destruction of the elbow or shoulder? A bent arm lock is a bent arm lock if the arm points toward your feet or if the arm points over the head.

None of this really matters because it is a debate about words. What is IMPORTANT is the concept. Once we understand the principle, the technique can be adapted to any number of situations.

Shime waza is much the same. Choking is choking is strangling...Regardless of WHO did what variation of it. It is a choke with a lapel or a naked choke. If you choke with the arms of your opponent or your own or your legs it is still shimewaza...

... because you don't ACTUALLY try to kill (cripple or maim) your opponent it can be said to be Ju (do) the WAY of gentleness... Judo is in the training methods as much as the techniques. Judo is in the uniform and the obi, the rank structure and the mats. Judo is the game regardless of the players calling themselves "fighters" or competitors...

Judo is giving your uke (or opponent) time to submit to a technique instead of breaking something straight away.

Judo is the method of learning Jujutsu techniques.


RG.

[wuxiasnake]

I tend to agree, as a BJJ player who practiced Judo in the past, while the 2 arts are similar they are also very different. When I was playing Judo the newaza was alot weaker than BJJ, alot of gaps in the technique.
What I liked about Judo was the superior stand up throws and takedowns.
Ultimately I quit Judo because I wanted to put all my time into BJJ. I just feel that too many Judoka these days put too much focus of their training on winning competitions, losing alot of the potential for Judo as a very effective self defence system.
Don't get me wrong I respect Judo large, just found the mat culture at the club I was training at wasn't for me. There could well be better clubs out there.

[SamuraiGuy]

The problem is the peruvian choke isnt an arm triangle, a triangle with the legs, a brabo choke, a darce choke, an anaconda choke (these are all "triangle" type chokes).

It is actually a different technique, its not a baseball bat choke, Rear Naked Choke, Front Naked choke, its different. It's new, while they are all the same in that their chokes, its still a new technique.

Anyway thats just semantics.

To Wuxiasnake, I'm surprised that you say BJJ has alot of escapes to the pins, because in my experience they dont have much, or practice it at all, why would they, who pins (except stallers) in BJJ.

BJJ escapes usually come when the opponent moves to attack, thus giving up something, whether its space, etc...

In Judo when they clamp that pin on you, your kinda fucked. There are escapes, but usually..... your done. They cant do anything to you unless they move, and then you can escape of course, but tehy can hold you there.

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by SamuraiGuy

The problem is the peruvian choke isnt an arm triangle, a triangle with the legs, a brabo choke, a darce choke, an anaconda choke (these are all "triangle" type chokes).

It is actually a different technique, its not a baseball bat choke, Rear Naked Choke, Front Naked choke, its different. It's new, while they are all the same in that their chokes, its still a new technique.

Anyway thats just semantics.

.......
...

Show me something "new" and I'll find it's "old" counterpart for you.

There are a number of variations of the figure four or Triangle choke.

I'm not familiar with the "new" names but a picture or illustration might help me (if I put my glasses on?)

LOL

[aseepish]

Originally Posted by Tant01

Judo is the method of learning Jujutsu techniques.

And that should end the debate right there!

[Tant01]

http://www.lockflow.com/article_view.php?id=1703

This example of the so called Puruvian "neck tie" is a modified Judo choke...

The GRIP is a dead give away.

...grips his palms together, right into left with all five (fingers) gripping the outside of the hand.

Judo Gene can be seen using VERY SIMILAR strangling techniques but he usually has the GRIMMACE face going on with it to exaggerate the strength being exerted.

[SamuraiGuy]

Thats not the way I do it, interesting...

Still though its a new technique "modified" or not, its still new to Judo.

Judo had to come from somewhere (or is it just modified JJJ), JJJ had to come from soemwhere, or is that just modified indian jiu jitsu (or whatever the hell they call it), or is that just modified cavemen, a completely new grip and way of attacking is new.

Oh, find me the X-Gaurd in judo plz, I'd love to see it.