The Ultimate in Martial Arts

mushinmaster · 12-09-2001, 11:41 AM

What do you think about this new form of creatine? It is supposed to bypass digestion, alieviating the problems associated with powder creatine such as muscle cramps, water retention, dehydration, and kidney problems.

I still haven't found anything about the long term effects of its use, but the liquid creatine appears to have no predicted digestive tract problems that powder creatine is supposed to lead too. I haven't found any studies indicating the effects of creatine use on the body's natural production of creatine.

Please, if you have any knowledge in this area, I would like to know your thoughts. If you can point me to any additional studies on creatine, that would be most helpful also.

The creatine serum website is www.creatine.com.

Szczepankiewicz · 12-10-2001, 11:46 AM

I have used creatine monohydrate off and on in the past. My training partner cycles on and off every 6-8 weeks. It really helps build the muscle, but can cause all kinds of dehydration.

I avoid using it anymore, because, as you said, no one knows what the long term affects might be. I haven't used the serum, nor do I know anything about it.... sorry.

I figure that you don't need supplements until you have a solid diet in place. Most people continue to eat garbage while taking supplements. I think this is a waste of money, as supplements are NOT cheap.

After you have a rock solid diet, and you still have slow progress, then look into the serum.

Be careful,

Good luck.

SZ

mushinmaster · 12-10-2001, 01:10 PM

Szczepankiewicz:

Thanx for the insight.

I think I'm going to stay away from it, and just concentrate on my eating.

I'm worried about my body not being able to produce creatine on its own, because I am going to be an officer in the army, possibly rangers/special forces.

If you hear anything on the long-term effects, I'd like to know. This serum is supposed to allieviate all of the immediate side effects, like dehydration, water retention, nasuea, and all those kidney problems, but the serum could still cause the body to cease natural production of creatine, which is bad.

I do have a pretty bad diet, and I've been researching nutrition in general, so I'm going to try and lay off the sweets - Its hard when you're 17 and you don't get fat from the stuff!

Can you tell me what your ideal diet consists of?

Twisted up · 12-10-2001, 06:29 PM

Eat PROTEIN and lots of it!!!!

You know, steak, chicken, eggs, etc..

Make sure you get at LEAST your body's minimum requirements per day! (Based upon your lean body weight!

mushinmaster · 12-10-2001, 10:11 PM

Thanks Twisted Up.

I have a friend who was a personal trainor, and he is going to set me up on a diet. He said I should be eating about 270 grams of protein a day - I had no clue it was that much. I get about 50-70 grams a day.

I am definately not eating enough food to be puting on major muscle mass, so I'm going to be focusing in on my diet from now on.

Tall skiny boney ectomorph to ripped mesomorph - maybe not, but I'm at least heading in the right direction.

Szczepankiewicz · 12-11-2001, 11:04 AM

My ideal diet is to eat whatever you want and not worry about it.

But the body doesn't like it when you do that. A good test: If it tastes good, then spit it out, it can't be good for you...

As long as you alternate/cycle the creatine it probably won't be a problem. But I do agree with you to stay away from it. Spend your money on better food.

Ranger? Special Forces?

Might I offer a suggestion or two? If you sign up, do it for the minimum enlistment time possible and get everything in writing! No matter what anyone else tells you, follow these two principles and you will thank me later....

mushinmaster · 12-11-2001, 01:54 PM

I'm going to hold off on the creatine thing, and get the awful-tasting diet down first - I like your ideal diet a lot better though.

I'm going to be attending West Point, and I will be an officer, so it works a little different for me. After 4 years of school, I get my bachelors of science and my commision, and I have a minimum 5 year requirement after that followed by a three year reserve period.

For a West Point diploma, its worth it!

Szczepankiewicz · 12-11-2001, 05:38 PM

Sweet. A cadidiot!

Actually, if you can make it at west point, you can survive pretty much anything.

Have you already been appointed? Send me a post card when you get there....

mushinmaster · 12-11-2001, 10:03 PM

I'll send ya a nice picture of the Hudson.

I've been accepted by West Point, and I am currently waiting to hear from my congressmen's office - I'll know before Christmass.

I'll be proud to be a cadidiot!

Bond · 12-12-2001, 06:55 PM

Musinmaster, the serum is supposeldy better than the powder. HOWEVER- Wait a year. See what the feedback is- the jury is still out. F#ck the powder man. Youcan feel that crap working on the kidney. Also if you really want the extra 10 lbs creatine gives- be sure NOT to load. The loading stage is proven to be unneccasary- in fact you get the runs lol.
West Point? I trained with the Ex Judo coach from there-and competed with few members a few years back. They also started up a BJJ team. I was talking to several cadets at the Grapplers Quest in Manhattan this year. They were still VERY new to BJJ .All of them had tained for only a couple months. I advised them not to feel bad this time out, since a lot of the other teams would have lots more experience than them. The team will grow as its members become more skilled. The Judo team was very good . The WestPont BJJ team will get there also. Especially if they combine them. Best Wishes !!!

mushinmaster · 12-13-2001, 01:39 PM

Thanx for the info, Bond. I am def going to hold off on the creatine.

There aren't any good BJJ or Judo instructors in my area, and I have practically no knowledge of grappling. I will definatly be joining as many martial disciplines at the Academy as I can.

I hope they have Muay Thai, too, 'cuz that's my all-time love!

I am really looking forward to learning BJJ and Judo, though. They are a necessary part of fighting that I haven't been able to pick up.

Maybe I'll see you at some of the competitions.

Train hard, bro!

Oberleutnant · 12-18-2001, 11:53 PM

Creatine serum is nothing new, it's been out well over a year and it's pretty much junk, every independent lab analysis says it contains none to almost no creatine content, but plenty of creatinine- an inert, useless substance formed in the presence of water. There is no empirical evidence creatine causes kidney problems. Cramping is up to debate, again there is no empirical/peer reviewed research showing a solid correlation between creatine use and cramps. Water retention is desireable because guess what- your muscles are composed primarily of water. It is this increased water retention that is hypothesized to be responsible for the slightly augmented anabolism.

Mushin: I strongly disagree with your personal trainer's protein recommendations, but that's a different topic all together. If I were you, I'd drop him ASAP and get a solid NSCA or ACSM certified trainer, or invest in some quality reading material and teach yourself.

mushinmaster · 12-19-2001, 02:18 PM

Creatine serum contains creatinine? That doesn't make sense. Creatinine is the digested form of creatine that causes kidney problems.

Are we talking about the same product?
http://www.creatine.com/articles/glo...glossary.shtml

What do you recomend for protein intake?

17 year old male - exercise daily

I believe this gentlemen is a highly reliable source - he was a collegiate wrestler - wrestlers know how to eat, especially at that level, a trainor for years, was on the cover of some magazine, and now is a teacher at the college i'm taking classes at, and is in incredible shape

What makes me thing he's the real deal is he didn't tell me this, one of his students and one of my friends did, and he is helping me without the consideration of money, so I know he's not a quack.

I've heard so much conflicting information in the past month I'm not sure what to believe any more.

Oberleutnant · 12-20-2001, 02:42 AM

mushin: Yep, that's the one I'm talking about.

There is nothing in research that shows protein intake above 0.9g/lb of body weight augments protein synthesis. Calories are important too. I'm not saying exceedint that amount will necessarily hamper performance & gains (although that's possible), but I am saying that you probably won't experience imrpoved gains, added to the fact it can be expensive and/ or difficult to consume exceedingly high amounts of protein.

Surprisingly, being a collegiate athlete doesnt necessarily mean you know what is best or most efficient for your body. I know a former BYU (quite successful one, I might add) wrestler who thought eating a powerbar before a match would give him better stamina. I have heard more than one collegiate strength & conditioning coach being appalled at some of the training wrestlers subject their bodies to for the sake of competition. Wreslters are phenomenal athletes, but it doesn't directly correlate with knowledge about nutrition and exercise science.

What does this ex collegiate wrestler/teacher teach? Being on the cover of a magazine nor being/appearing to be in shape doesn't necessarily mean you have superior knowledge. Genetics play a huge role, as well as many other factors. I dont frequent this board nearly as much as I used to, and I dont really have the time and energy to write up lengthy posts anymore, so I apologize for my brevity. I'm going to take the cop out and refer you to visit the strength and conditioning forum at mixedmartialarts.com - I post there occaisionally, and there are many contributors that would gladly address your questions, and some very knowledgeable guys there.

About creatine.... in short, if you're going to use it, you dont need fancy preparations, there is nothing credible out there showing they work any better than plain powdered stuff. Even so, creatine makes a small difference. Basic nutrition, getting in adequate calories and protein, and proper training make upthe foundation for success, don't look for results in a bottle.

mushinmaster · 12-20-2001, 11:38 AM

Thanx, Oberleutnant

I remember reading somewhere that I should be consuming .6-.9 of my weight in grams of protein, but I wasn't aware of that statistic.

I think I am going to find myself a good nutrition book from a wel-known source. Any suggestions? Anyone?

I know that creatine won't make a difference if I don't supply my body with the right stuff it needs, so I'm going to stay away from it till I have a solid diet, and maybe I won't want it when I have a good diet.

Thanx for that forum. I'm def going to use it.

12-09-2001, 11:41 AM	#1 (permalink)
mushinmaster Novice Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: SGF, NY Posts: 402 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Creatine Serum What do you think about this new form of creatine? It is supposed to bypass digestion, alieviating the problems associated with powder creatine such as muscle cramps, water retention, dehydration, and kidney problems. I still haven't found anything about the long term effects of its use, but the liquid creatine appears to have no predicted digestive tract problems that powder creatine is supposed to lead too. I haven't found any studies indicating the effects of creatine use on the body's natural production of creatine. Please, if you have any knowledge in this area, I would like to know your thoughts. If you can point me to any additional studies on creatine, that would be most helpful also. The creatine serum website is www.creatine.com.

12-20-2001, 02:42 AM	#14 (permalink)
Oberleutnant Novice Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Setting a small fire in your girl's panties Posts: 278 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	mushin: Yep, that's the one I'm talking about. There is nothing in research that shows protein intake above 0.9g/lb of body weight augments protein synthesis. Calories are important too. I'm not saying exceedint that amount will necessarily hamper performance & gains (although that's possible), but I am saying that you probably won't experience imrpoved gains, added to the fact it can be expensive and/ or difficult to consume exceedingly high amounts of protein. Surprisingly, being a collegiate athlete doesnt necessarily mean you know what is best or most efficient for your body. I know a former BYU (quite successful one, I might add) wrestler who thought eating a powerbar before a match would give him better stamina. I have heard more than one collegiate strength & conditioning coach being appalled at some of the training wrestlers subject their bodies to for the sake of competition. Wreslters are phenomenal athletes, but it doesn't directly correlate with knowledge about nutrition and exercise science. What does this ex collegiate wrestler/teacher teach? Being on the cover of a magazine nor being/appearing to be in shape doesn't necessarily mean you have superior knowledge. Genetics play a huge role, as well as many other factors. I dont frequent this board nearly as much as I used to, and I dont really have the time and energy to write up lengthy posts anymore, so I apologize for my brevity. I'm going to take the cop out and refer you to visit the strength and conditioning forum at mixedmartialarts.com - I post there occaisionally, and there are many contributors that would gladly address your questions, and some very knowledgeable guys there. About creatine.... in short, if you're going to use it, you dont need fancy preparations, there is nothing credible out there showing they work any better than plain powdered stuff. Even so, creatine makes a small difference. Basic nutrition, getting in adequate calories and protein, and proper training make upthe foundation for success, don't look for results in a bottle. __________________ "Success comes two chicks at a time"

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12-10-2001, 11:46 AM	#2 (permalink)
Szczepankiewicz Registered User Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Meridian, ID, USA Posts: 4,109 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	I have used creatine monohydrate off and on in the past. My training partner cycles on and off every 6-8 weeks. It really helps build the muscle, but can cause all kinds of dehydration. I avoid using it anymore, because, as you said, no one knows what the long term affects might be. I haven't used the serum, nor do I know anything about it.... sorry. I figure that you don't need supplements until you have a solid diet in place. Most people continue to eat garbage while taking supplements. I think this is a waste of money, as supplements are NOT cheap. After you have a rock solid diet, and you still have slow progress, then look into the serum. Be careful, Good luck. SZ

12-10-2001, 01:10 PM	#3 (permalink)
mushinmaster Novice Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: SGF, NY Posts: 402 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Szczepankiewicz: Thanx for the insight. I think I'm going to stay away from it, and just concentrate on my eating. I'm worried about my body not being able to produce creatine on its own, because I am going to be an officer in the army, possibly rangers/special forces. If you hear anything on the long-term effects, I'd like to know. This serum is supposed to allieviate all of the immediate side effects, like dehydration, water retention, nasuea, and all those kidney problems, but the serum could still cause the body to cease natural production of creatine, which is bad. I do have a pretty bad diet, and I've been researching nutrition in general, so I'm going to try and lay off the sweets - Its hard when you're 17 and you don't get fat from the stuff! Can you tell me what your ideal diet consists of?

12-10-2001, 06:29 PM	#4 (permalink)
Twisted up Novice Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Winston-Salem, NC Posts: 172 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Eat PROTEIN and lots of it!!!! You know, steak, chicken, eggs, etc.. Make sure you get at LEAST your body's minimum requirements per day! (Based upon your lean body weight!

12-10-2001, 10:11 PM	#5 (permalink)
mushinmaster Novice Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: SGF, NY Posts: 402 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks Twisted Up. I have a friend who was a personal trainor, and he is going to set me up on a diet. He said I should be eating about 270 grams of protein a day - I had no clue it was that much. I get about 50-70 grams a day. I am definately not eating enough food to be puting on major muscle mass, so I'm going to be focusing in on my diet from now on. Tall skiny boney ectomorph to ripped mesomorph - maybe not, but I'm at least heading in the right direction.

12-11-2001, 11:04 AM	#6 (permalink)
Szczepankiewicz Registered User Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Meridian, ID, USA Posts: 4,109 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	My ideal diet is to eat whatever you want and not worry about it. But the body doesn't like it when you do that. A good test: If it tastes good, then spit it out, it can't be good for you... As long as you alternate/cycle the creatine it probably won't be a problem. But I do agree with you to stay away from it. Spend your money on better food. Ranger? Special Forces? Might I offer a suggestion or two? If you sign up, do it for the minimum enlistment time possible and get everything in writing! No matter what anyone else tells you, follow these two principles and you will thank me later....

12-11-2001, 01:54 PM	#7 (permalink)
mushinmaster Novice Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: SGF, NY Posts: 402 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	I'm going to hold off on the creatine thing, and get the awful-tasting diet down first - I like your ideal diet a lot better though. I'm going to be attending West Point, and I will be an officer, so it works a little different for me. After 4 years of school, I get my bachelors of science and my commision, and I have a minimum 5 year requirement after that followed by a three year reserve period. For a West Point diploma, its worth it!

12-11-2001, 05:38 PM	#8 (permalink)
Szczepankiewicz Registered User Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Meridian, ID, USA Posts: 4,109 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Sweet. A cadidiot! Actually, if you can make it at west point, you can survive pretty much anything. Have you already been appointed? Send me a post card when you get there....

12-11-2001, 10:03 PM	#9 (permalink)
mushinmaster Novice Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: SGF, NY Posts: 402 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	I'll send ya a nice picture of the Hudson. I've been accepted by West Point, and I am currently waiting to hear from my congressmen's office - I'll know before Christmass. I'll be proud to be a cadidiot!

12-12-2001, 06:55 PM	#10 (permalink)
Bond Novice Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: NY/NJ Posts: 75 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Musinmaster, the serum is supposeldy better than the powder. HOWEVER- Wait a year. See what the feedback is- the jury is still out. F#ck the powder man. Youcan feel that crap working on the kidney. Also if you really want the extra 10 lbs creatine gives- be sure NOT to load. The loading stage is proven to be unneccasary- in fact you get the runs lol. West Point? I trained with the Ex Judo coach from there-and competed with few members a few years back. They also started up a BJJ team. I was talking to several cadets at the Grapplers Quest in Manhattan this year. They were still VERY new to BJJ .All of them had tained for only a couple months. I advised them not to feel bad this time out, since a lot of the other teams would have lots more experience than them. The team will grow as its members become more skilled. The Judo team was very good . The WestPont BJJ team will get there also. Especially if they combine them. Best Wishes !!!

12-13-2001, 01:39 PM	#11 (permalink)
mushinmaster Novice Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: SGF, NY Posts: 402 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanx for the info, Bond. I am def going to hold off on the creatine. There aren't any good BJJ or Judo instructors in my area, and I have practically no knowledge of grappling. I will definatly be joining as many martial disciplines at the Academy as I can. I hope they have Muay Thai, too, 'cuz that's my all-time love! I am really looking forward to learning BJJ and Judo, though. They are a necessary part of fighting that I haven't been able to pick up. Maybe I'll see you at some of the competitions. Train hard, bro!

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12-18-2001, 11:53 PM	#12 (permalink)
Oberleutnant Novice Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Setting a small fire in your girl's panties Posts: 278 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Creatine serum is nothing new, it's been out well over a year and it's pretty much junk, every independent lab analysis says it contains none to almost no creatine content, but plenty of creatinine- an inert, useless substance formed in the presence of water. There is no empirical evidence creatine causes kidney problems. Cramping is up to debate, again there is no empirical/peer reviewed research showing a solid correlation between creatine use and cramps. Water retention is desireable because guess what- your muscles are composed primarily of water. It is this increased water retention that is hypothesized to be responsible for the slightly augmented anabolism. Mushin: I strongly disagree with your personal trainer's protein recommendations, but that's a different topic all together. If I were you, I'd drop him ASAP and get a solid NSCA or ACSM certified trainer, or invest in some quality reading material and teach yourself.

12-19-2001, 02:18 PM	#13 (permalink)
mushinmaster Novice Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: SGF, NY Posts: 402 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Creatine serum contains creatinine? That doesn't make sense. Creatinine is the digested form of creatine that causes kidney problems. Are we talking about the same product? http://www.creatine.com/articles/glo...glossary.shtml What do you recomend for protein intake? 17 year old male - exercise daily I believe this gentlemen is a highly reliable source - he was a collegiate wrestler - wrestlers know how to eat, especially at that level, a trainor for years, was on the cover of some magazine, and now is a teacher at the college i'm taking classes at, and is in incredible shape What makes me thing he's the real deal is he didn't tell me this, one of his students and one of my friends did, and he is helping me without the consideration of money, so I know he's not a quack. I've heard so much conflicting information in the past month I'm not sure what to believe any more.

12-20-2001, 11:38 AM	#15 (permalink)
mushinmaster Novice Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: SGF, NY Posts: 402 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanx, Oberleutnant I remember reading somewhere that I should be consuming .6-.9 of my weight in grams of protein, but I wasn't aware of that statistic. I think I am going to find myself a good nutrition book from a wel-known source. Any suggestions? Anyone? I know that creatine won't make a difference if I don't supply my body with the right stuff it needs, so I'm going to stay away from it till I have a solid diet, and maybe I won't want it when I have a good diet. Thanx for that forum. I'm def going to use it.