Thomas Junta

[Szczepankiewicz]

What is your take on the whole Thomas Junta case in Massachusetts?

My take on it:

First, the guys shouldn't have been arguing like that in front of their children anyway.

From what I have read and think I understand is that Junta came in after the argument to get his son. The other guy took a swing at him. From what I heard on the radio and have read so far, Junta hit the other guy three times.

They are saying that Junta outweighed the other guy by 114lbs and was an inch taller. The prosecution is trying to prove that this is a beating death.

To me a beating death is someone repeatedly striking someone with a volley of blows again and again and again after the other person has stopped moving/resisting. Something akin to a gang beating or hitting them with a club or repeated kicks when they are down.

If all Junta threw were three punches, I don't think that this should be classified as a beating death.

If I were in his shoes I would have avoided the conflict as much as possible. But if some joker takes a swing at me and my son is nearby I would probably be thinking about the safety of my son and probably become a little irrational.

I have always been told that in a fight you go for the kill and don't let up until it's all over. You don't fight a gentleman's fight because there are no rules.

I do believe that the guy should go to jail for killing someone, because I don't actually buy the whole self defense thing as they are presenting it.

I also don't think that he should go up for manslaughter for 20 years either.

In our society you can't get away with killing people, but you also can't go and cut them with your skates and take swings at them either.

I don't have all the facts, and I don't really know the best way that this should be handled, but I would like to get your take on the issue.

Regards,

SZ

[Zhoozhitsu]

The "three blows" was Junta's claim. All witnesses present said Junta hit Costin repeatedly after pinning him. His own son and two females present begged him to stop.

The two women -- one a grandmother at the rink with her grandson and another an employee there -- said Junta overpowered Costin, pinned him to the ground and beat him in the head repeatedly....... Junta's 12-year-old son said he saw Costin jump on his father's back, but he also said that Junta was kneeling over Costin at one point and he acknowledged screaming at his father to stop.

Multiple people would not be compelled to yell stop if there were only 3 blows delivered by Junta. Junta should be convicted of the manslaughter he is charged with.

[Szczepankiewicz]

Yup, if he hit 10 times or more then it would be manslaughter. No doubt about it. But this case is really muddy. Thanks for your input!

SZ

[Mad Dog]

Junta is ape who needs to be locked up. Regardless who the instigator was, he went way beyond what is reasonable force to defend yourself. It disgusts me that a 270 lb. dude would get on top of a 160 lb. dude and beat him to death!! Shit like this is exactly what prompts me to train.

[defendu.com]

You guys should have caught one of the national news magazines tonight with a recap of the case and interviews with the jury.

The medical examiner said there were at least 15 areas of trauma on the deceased.

The jury admitted it was a case of mutual combat, but what swung the jury was Junta's general out of control fury (pushing his way back into the arena with such force that it left a bruise on the female manager's arm) AND that Junta had the opportunity to stop the beating when the deceased could no longer resist -- especially when people were screaming "YOU'RE KILLING HIM".

A couple of points here:

1. When you are mounted, to witnesses YOU are the aggressor;
2. You should train to include some submissions or immobilization techniques in your arsenal;
3. Juries tend to frown on battering someone with your fists repeatedly in the head area when they cannot respond.

It is not uncommon for people to die after they've been punched. (Most of the times it's when you punch someone and, in their drunken stupor, they fall over and crack their head on the pavement). In these cases, the aggressor almost always is found guilty of manslaughter.

Something to think about if your techniques consist only of striking.

[Szczepankiewicz]

How could you get fifteen areas of trauma after only throwing three punches? I guess someone was lying! Ol' boy deserves to go to jail for a long time...

[soho]

It's pretty clear that there were a lot more than three punches. All accounts except Junta's point to a massive beating. Even if there only were three punches, Ffighting and killing someone, especially when they are half your size is absolutely unacceptable. He should have the book thrown at him.

[Szczepankiewicz]

From what I have read on here, there were more than three punches thrown. But I disagree that he should have the book thrown at him because he was bigger.

We have all seen where the smaller guy is much more deadly than the larger one. It can and does happen all the time.

But from what I can tell, Junta wanted to destroy the other guy and his claim of self defense is laughable. Off to jail with this guy...

[soho]

It's the fighting and killing that get the book thrown at the guy. The size thing is just an afterthought that does not help his case.

[Szczepankiewicz]

Your right, killing like that, he deserves to go to prison.

I wanted to stress the point because I read over and over again from the media sources that everyone was fixated on how big the guy was and the size differences. We see how unbiased and objective the media is once again....


Thanks for all the input,

SZ

[Zhoozhitsu]

Absolutely. Size matters most, as it should during litigations involving scoffles. Most people aren't trained to fight.

By they way, how the heck do you pronounce Junta?

[defendu.com]

I agree. To the witnesses, size DOES matter, even though we all know that the skilled smaller guy can decimate big guys.

Just to muddy the waters more, apparently Costin was still wearing protective hockey equipment and skates (no helmet) AND threw the first punch. He was attempting to kick Junta with the skates, but Junta either (three different accounts from witnesses) knelt next to Costin, knelt astride Costin (classic mount position) or knelt with one knee on Costin's chest and rained blows until Costin could not defend himself any longer.

All of us here on the board are used to dealing with these elements, but the average NON-FIGHTER citizen only sees a big guy wailing on a little guy.

Another story that illustrates this concept is a fight that a training partner had (ironically, right after workout, coming out of the dojo) in front of a restaurant that was in the same strip mall.

A big guy mouths off, our guy says something back (I'm pretty sure it was a smart ass remark knowing this guy). The big guy swings, our guy sits back and pulls him into the guard and performs a Kimura arm lock, destroying the big guy's shoulder. Our guy is thinking, "uh-oh, I'm in trouble". Cops come, witnesses say, "The big guy swung at the little guy, they fell to the ground and then the big guy started screaming." Cops cuff the big guy and off he goes.

Remember, witnesses often don't know what they are looking at. They can't testify to what they saw, only to what they THOUGHT they saw.

Also, I have no idea how to pronounce it...the news is saying the J like "jump". Here in the southwest I want to use the Spanish and say "WHO nta"

[Szczepankiewicz]

Not what they saw but what they THOUGHT they saw. ...

Truer words were never spoken!

[defendu.com]

Hey you guys, what do you think about this scenario?

Everything being the same as the true occurrance with Junta mounted (on or knee on the chest) and is pummelling Costin.

Costin feels that he is (literally) being killed by Junta's blows. People are screaming, "You're killing him!" Costin is sure he is going to die and pulls a weapon (handgun or knife) and kills Junta, thereby saving his own life...

Is Costin off free and clear? Is he now guilty of involuntary manslaugher or was he just defending himself?

If you get the basic sense from the trial that Costin was a scrapper with a record, started the fight with a chest bump later followed by the sucker punch, does he now forfeit the right to use deadly force once he is losing the fight?

Or is the size and weight disparity SO great that Costin is justified in using deadly force once it becomes apparent that he is going to be killed?

Should you train to use deadly force when you are "just" involved in a fistfight?

[defendu.com]

Hawk Hardy should be able to provide some legal feedback on this case...

Hawk, you out there?