Tracy Karate (stay out of this Joe)

Rob B · 01-17-2002, 03:24 PM

In another thread you stated that you trained in a way that was condusive to street fighting. I was wondering how really do you do this. In my experience I have found that no technique will really be engrained unless I actually do it against a 100% resisting individual.

I remember, years ago my boxing coach telling me that my guard was dropping every time I jabbed. I listened and thought I had it, that was until I got caught with a hook while my hand dropped. I really can't see how you can practice these techniques without killing yourself.

TracyKarate · 01-17-2002, 03:59 PM

Well I am glad you asked me this. It's a good question. First off when I say I train something all out, obviously I don't mean that I will actually gouge my partner's eyes of knock him unconcious or split his chin open so he has to wear a scar on his face for the rest of his life. But he will give me full resistance and not stand still while I perform my technique. That is what makes my training so realistic and unlike most other karate dojos. For example, when training a bear hug, my opponent will squeeze as hard as he can, just like a real situation. I then must work my techniqe from there. The same would go for a head lock or a knife attack. We only employ full force groin attacks if we are wearing groin protectors, and eye gouges with raquetball goggles and so forth. This way, we are not kicking to the body and saying "oh on the street I would just kick to the groin. No! It is just not that easy! If you are kickboxing, you are throwing hundreds of kicks to anywhere BUT the groin. Once in a real life situation you must then make that mental note to yourself to alter your target. As quuick as that mental note may be, it is a hesitation, and therefore it is the diiference that can determine the outcome of the fight. The bottom line is that you must train exactly the way you intend to fight. If you box, that is fine. But if someone is going to attack me, I will not respond in a manner that is limited by strict rules when it is my well being on the line.

Rob B · 01-17-2002, 04:52 PM

Hello,

Thanks for the response, a few observations and questions though. You said that your partner, in a bear hug situation will squeeze you as hard as he can; Will he however be trying to throw you down and knock you out. Same as the head lock situation, will they literally be trying to finish you. Everything changes when someone is really trying to hurt you. I remember the first time I got hit hard in Thai class. My eyes watered up, I was groggy and I completely lost my mental focus; I started swinging wildly and completly forgot what I was taught. The more and more though I got hit, and got used to someone really trying to knock me out, the more prepared I became.

TracyKarate · 01-17-2002, 04:56 PM

Yes, I agree. Reality is the key!

Rob B · 01-17-2002, 06:05 PM

You didn't answer my question,

This I believe is the crux of the entire argument. I believe that the martial "sports" have an advantage because you are trained to deal with someone who is actually trying to knock you out, trying to take you down, trying to really hurt you. The scenarios you described, seem to be even more controlled than the competitions you discard.

TracyKarate · 01-17-2002, 06:11 PM

More controlled by a boxer? A boxer has the protection of a referee to break a clinch. He is restricted by an entire book of rules. How would he escape if grabbed from behind? Or in a headlock? The answer is simple: He would try to escape the same way he would try as if he had never trained to box--because boxing does not address these situations. Of course a boxer has an advantage over a martial artist in a boxing match. That is his game. Boxing is not a streetfight. While a boxer is looking to slip a jab on the streetfight, a good martial artist will simply attack with a groin kick, to which the boxer is completely unaccustomed to. He trains to fight another boxer, not a streetattacker.

Rob B · 01-17-2002, 06:31 PM

Boxing is a tool, just like wrestling, BJJ and Thai. It is by no means a complete street effective martial art; It is however my choice for my punches. What does it give you? It gives you an actual perspective of your awarness against somebody who is really trying to knock you out. It gives you an idea of distance and timing that you could never gain other than actually fighting.

Why do yu think that I would use boxing to stop a headlock, or a bearhug? I've had a number of years of wrestling under my belt, why wouldn't I use that.

phillyman · 01-18-2002, 03:36 PM

I think the most realistic train would be to really fight. I think it would be cool to practice say with the that bodyarmor ive seen on the web although i cant remember the name of it. There are too many what ifs situation. Different body sizes and strengths will invoke different reactions. A standard technique for say a headlock may work for someone say the size of the Rock but might fail on me because im smaller IE training methods

crazyjoe380 · 01-21-2002, 10:02 AM

lol..

why did you have to mention me...but you are correct about reality combat..

bear hugs are just to the better position in a fight and you go for the take down...

if you for the 'bear hug" you go for where the lower spine where its most flexible and crush..move towards the left....
right..backwards...he will go down.. when you go for that bh, as you grab your head strikes his lower chin... This move is done and your taken down within 2 secs...

you go for that move when they strike

jab, right hand, or the hook

(real punches not reverse karate bullshit strikes)

we fight against other grapplers and boxers using and countering western style boxing(EX: PUNCHES IN BOXING..DELAYHOYA, ALI, FORMAN)

Rob B · 01-22-2002, 12:11 AM

phillyman,

I agree completely; If you want to learn how to swim, you get in the water. If you want to learn how to fight, then you fight. People make so many assumptions about fighting without ever really doing it.

CrazyJoe,

Well I wanted to have a conversation with Tracy Karate without insults being hurled in the thread. Is this something personal between you have with him? Anyways, since Tracy Karate has nothing more to say on this matter I wanted to ask you about a statement you made.

"we fight against other grapplers and boxers using and countering western style boxing(EX: PUNCHES IN BOXING..DELAYHOYA, ALI, FORMAN)"

In reality, with bare knuckles you cannot pull of alot of the punches, combinations and tactics you do in boxing. How do you do it with out breaking your knuckles?

LEGION · 01-22-2002, 01:13 AM

Why is the "groin kick" argument always used by the practitioners of useless "fighting" styles? Have you ever actually been kicked full force in the groin, or better yet, in the balls? I have. It hurts like a mother ****er, but contrary to what you see on tv does not drop your opponent and is far from being debilitating. More realistically, i just pisses them off. Whereas before they only wanted to hurt you, now they are actively trying to kill you. My advice, if you are going to kick, would be to aim the kick at a more useful target such as the knee or jaw.

crazyjoe380 · 01-22-2002, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rob B

CrazyJoe,

Well I wanted to have a conversation with Tracy Karate without insults being hurled in the thread. Is this something personal between you have with him? Anyways, since Tracy Karate has nothing more to say on this matter I wanted to ask you about a statement you made.

"we fight against other grapplers and boxers using and countering western style boxing(EX: PUNCHES IN BOXING..DELAYHOYA, ALI, FORMAN)"

In reality, with bare knuckles you cannot pull of alot of the punches, combinations and tactics you do in boxing. How do you do it with out breaking your knuckles?

i hope your not being a smart ass with that question..(mabey its me ..my appoligies)

No class gonna hit you in the face bare knuckle..or your really gonna spar with full contact..not even pride fighting is bare knuckle..ifyou know how to fight you can fight with or without gloves..no excuse!

what i mean by countering other grapplers and boxers....
they show you the timing and speed of it...
i have a choice.when he throws a punch i can punch back and counter or go for the take down..so i dont know what you mean..
the bear hug move is done to get the better position..

LEFT JAB THROW/STRAIGHT RIGHT, LEFT OR RIGHT HOOK/CROSS

change positions meaning lower the body and BANG..shoot!
get what you are aiming for if your getting the leg or the chest to bring down..if you dont take Vale tudo, roman greco, or jiu jitsu then you wont get it.. THOSE PUNCHES are if the apponent trys to punch your head or chest or ribs & if they miss the shoot i dont hold the punch back but i turn into a slap..just to train...

boxing and thai
(boxing we strike..would you fight MIKE TYSON even though he dont bare knuckle? so i dont get you and thats why im asking if your being a smart ass)

i take boxing and thai boxing so i understand the styles..and practice how or what are done in fights to make counters besides the ones they teach..you can fait a jab and fool the grappler so if he goes for the shoot he gets a upper cut or a knee..if you see that is what he always does..boxing teaches you timing and to see things you didnt before because boxing is technical. if an apponent is throwing a jab and he keeps putting his arm back up to his face but no all the way to his chin, you can time it so when he throws that jab again hes gonna probably place that hand in the same spot so just time that counter and BOOM ..tko.....

same thing with grappling if he tries to keep going for the take down when you throw something, faint a punch and really throw another one...

TracyKarate · 01-22-2002, 11:56 AM

Exactly. There is a reason boxers wear gloves and it is to protect their hands from being broken. CrazyJoe learned this the hard way when he barbarically split open his friends chin and subsequently broke his hand. He bragged about it in earlier posts if anyone is wondering. It is a sport people. Sports have rules and points and referees and judges who make decisions on who "looked" better in the match. A streetfight has none of those and therefore it is imperitive that one would train for that situation accordingly. I for on do not expect to use the "rope-a-dope" against a violent attacker on the street.

crazyjoe380 · 01-22-2002, 12:08 PM

that's ok..ive knocked people out without gloves....and without hurting my hands...

he has no scare dick face...just to let you know..it healed clean

and ow well if i bare knuck i just do that isnt any of your buiness tracy..go attend to your mother

TracyKarate · 01-22-2002, 12:15 PM

I was under the impression that to program computers one needed to be able to spell...

01-17-2002, 03:24 PM	#1 (permalink)
Rob B Novice Join Date: Nov 2000 Posts: 88	Tracy Karate (stay out of this Joe) In another thread you stated that you trained in a way that was condusive to street fighting. I was wondering how really do you do this. In my experience I have found that no technique will really be engrained unless I actually do it against a 100% resisting individual. I remember, years ago my boxing coach telling me that my guard was dropping every time I jabbed. I listened and thought I had it, that was until I got caught with a hook while my hand dropped. I really can't see how you can practice these techniques without killing yourself.

01-17-2002, 03:59 PM	#2 (permalink)
TracyKarate Registered User Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 193	Well I am glad you asked me this. It's a good question. First off when I say I train something all out, obviously I don't mean that I will actually gouge my partner's eyes of knock him unconcious or split his chin open so he has to wear a scar on his face for the rest of his life. But he will give me full resistance and not stand still while I perform my technique. That is what makes my training so realistic and unlike most other karate dojos. For example, when training a bear hug, my opponent will squeeze as hard as he can, just like a real situation. I then must work my techniqe from there. The same would go for a head lock or a knife attack. We only employ full force groin attacks if we are wearing groin protectors, and eye gouges with raquetball goggles and so forth. This way, we are not kicking to the body and saying "oh on the street I would just kick to the groin. No! It is just not that easy! If you are kickboxing, you are throwing hundreds of kicks to anywhere BUT the groin. Once in a real life situation you must then make that mental note to yourself to alter your target. As quuick as that mental note may be, it is a hesitation, and therefore it is the diiference that can determine the outcome of the fight. The bottom line is that you must train exactly the way you intend to fight. If you box, that is fine. But if someone is going to attack me, I will not respond in a manner that is limited by strict rules when it is my well being on the line. __________________ "The mind does not choose the situation, but through practice can choose how it is to be realized."

01-17-2002, 04:56 PM	#4 (permalink)
TracyKarate Registered User Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 193	Yes, I agree. Reality is the key! __________________ "The mind does not choose the situation, but through practice can choose how it is to be realized."

01-17-2002, 06:11 PM	#6 (permalink)
TracyKarate Registered User Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 193	More controlled by a boxer? A boxer has the protection of a referee to break a clinch. He is restricted by an entire book of rules. How would he escape if grabbed from behind? Or in a headlock? The answer is simple: He would try to escape the same way he would try as if he had never trained to box--because boxing does not address these situations. Of course a boxer has an advantage over a martial artist in a boxing match. That is his game. Boxing is not a streetfight. While a boxer is looking to slip a jab on the streetfight, a good martial artist will simply attack with a groin kick, to which the boxer is completely unaccustomed to. He trains to fight another boxer, not a streetattacker. __________________ "The mind does not choose the situation, but through practice can choose how it is to be realized."

01-18-2002, 03:36 PM	#8 (permalink)
phillyman Registered User Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: philadelphia Posts: 219	my 2 cents I think the most realistic train would be to really fight. I think it would be cool to practice say with the that bodyarmor ive seen on the web although i cant remember the name of it. There are too many what ifs situation. Different body sizes and strengths will invoke different reactions. A standard technique for say a headlock may work for someone say the size of the Rock but might fail on me because im smaller IE training methods

01-17-2002, 04:52 PM	#3 (permalink)
Rob B Novice Join Date: Nov 2000 Posts: 88	Hello, Thanks for the response, a few observations and questions though. You said that your partner, in a bear hug situation will squeeze you as hard as he can; Will he however be trying to throw you down and knock you out. Same as the head lock situation, will they literally be trying to finish you. Everything changes when someone is really trying to hurt you. I remember the first time I got hit hard in Thai class. My eyes watered up, I was groggy and I completely lost my mental focus; I started swinging wildly and completly forgot what I was taught. The more and more though I got hit, and got used to someone really trying to knock me out, the more prepared I became.

01-17-2002, 06:05 PM	#5 (permalink)
Rob B Novice Join Date: Nov 2000 Posts: 88	You didn't answer my question, This I believe is the crux of the entire argument. I believe that the martial "sports" have an advantage because you are trained to deal with someone who is actually trying to knock you out, trying to take you down, trying to really hurt you. The scenarios you described, seem to be even more controlled than the competitions you discard.

01-17-2002, 06:31 PM	#7 (permalink)
Rob B Novice Join Date: Nov 2000 Posts: 88	Boxing is a tool, just like wrestling, BJJ and Thai. It is by no means a complete street effective martial art; It is however my choice for my punches. What does it give you? It gives you an actual perspective of your awarness against somebody who is really trying to knock you out. It gives you an idea of distance and timing that you could never gain other than actually fighting. Why do yu think that I would use boxing to stop a headlock, or a bearhug? I've had a number of years of wrestling under my belt, why wouldn't I use that.

01-21-2002, 10:02 AM	#9 (permalink)
crazyjoe380 Registered User Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 1,368	lol.. why did you have to mention me...but you are correct about reality combat.. bear hugs are just to the better position in a fight and you go for the take down... if you for the 'bear hug" you go for where the lower spine where its most flexible and crush..move towards the left.... right..backwards...he will go down.. when you go for that bh, as you grab your head strikes his lower chin... This move is done and your taken down within 2 secs... you go for that move when they strike jab, right hand, or the hook (real punches not reverse karate bullshit strikes) we fight against other grapplers and boxers using and countering western style boxing(EX: PUNCHES IN BOXING..DELAYHOYA, ALI, FORMAN)

01-22-2002, 12:11 AM	#10 (permalink)
Rob B Novice Join Date: Nov 2000 Posts: 88	phillyman, I agree completely; If you want to learn how to swim, you get in the water. If you want to learn how to fight, then you fight. People make so many assumptions about fighting without ever really doing it. CrazyJoe, Well I wanted to have a conversation with Tracy Karate without insults being hurled in the thread. Is this something personal between you have with him? Anyways, since Tracy Karate has nothing more to say on this matter I wanted to ask you about a statement you made. "we fight against other grapplers and boxers using and countering western style boxing(EX: PUNCHES IN BOXING..DELAYHOYA, ALI, FORMAN)" In reality, with bare knuckles you cannot pull of alot of the punches, combinations and tactics you do in boxing. How do you do it with out breaking your knuckles?

01-22-2002, 01:13 AM	#11 (permalink)
LEGION Novice Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: The Republic of Texas Posts: 62	Why is the "groin kick" argument always used by the practitioners of useless "fighting" styles? Have you ever actually been kicked full force in the groin, or better yet, in the balls? I have. It hurts like a mother ****er, but contrary to what you see on tv does not drop your opponent and is far from being debilitating. More realistically, i just pisses them off. Whereas before they only wanted to hurt you, now they are actively trying to kill you. My advice, if you are going to kick, would be to aim the kick at a more useful target such as the knee or jaw. __________________ Trygg vert berre han som tor....

01-22-2002, 11:56 AM	#13 (permalink)
TracyKarate Registered User Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 193	Exactly. There is a reason boxers wear gloves and it is to protect their hands from being broken. CrazyJoe learned this the hard way when he barbarically split open his friends chin and subsequently broke his hand. He bragged about it in earlier posts if anyone is wondering. It is a sport people. Sports have rules and points and referees and judges who make decisions on who "looked" better in the match. A streetfight has none of those and therefore it is imperitive that one would train for that situation accordingly. I for on do not expect to use the "rope-a-dope" against a violent attacker on the street. __________________ "The mind does not choose the situation, but through practice can choose how it is to be realized."

01-22-2002, 12:08 PM	#14 (permalink)
crazyjoe380 Registered User Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 1,368	that's ok..ive knocked people out without gloves....and without hurting my hands... he has no scare dick face...just to let you know..it healed clean and ow well if i bare knuck i just do that isnt any of your buiness tracy..go attend to your mother

01-22-2002, 12:15 PM	#15 (permalink)
TracyKarate Registered User Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 193	I was under the impression that to program computers one needed to be able to spell... __________________ "The mind does not choose the situation, but through practice can choose how it is to be realized."

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes	Rate This Thread
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode	Rate This Thread: