Opinions on Scott Sonnon?

zeeberex · 02-10-2002, 01:29 PM

Anyone here have any experience with Scott Sonnon, the ROSS (Russian Martial Art) guy? Is his stuff (Grappler's Toolbox, breathing exercises, etc.) worth the time? I hear mixed things about whether this stuff is useful.

I looked up Sonnon on Google newsgroups and there a huge amount of bad press on him. A guy claims that Sonnon took his money and didn't provide services, along with a bunch of other allegations - e.g., Sonnon is unprofessional, not very good, his art is psuedoscience, etc..

Anyone here ever train in person with the guy?

Shimora · 02-10-2002, 10:35 PM

He knows his stuff. I see much of ROSS as being similar to Tai Chi and Qi Gong, therefore it should be effective.

Smokey_D · 02-12-2002, 07:01 AM

I met Scott once in the Harrisburg, PA area. I didn't realize that it was THE Scott Sonnon until after watching his group workout a little then it hit me like a ton of bricks who this guy actually was.

I must say that he was very courteous, respectful and kind to me and his students. I have nothing personally against him or his group. With that said, he seems a little weird though: strange facial hair, acting very inappropriate with a student he was dating (kissing and touching throughout the whole workout), and a fanatic devotion to what he was doing.

His Russian art is based on breathing and doing some very unusual, and IMHO, pointless breathing exercises while rolling around on the floor. I went to grapple a little with them that night, but it was not their "grappling" night, so Scott invited me to his home to grapple Sambo style later that week. I declined because I felt VERY uncomfortable going to his home and working out with them.

On his grappling philosophy, he said that they way they teach, say a heel hook, is not the technique itself, but a student would learn through a Grey's Anatomy book about the physical makeup of the joint being attacked and find it's weakness. That's it. He said they don't really grapple or do any training that involves much contact. His art is mostly based on breathing and the goofy rolling around on the floor exercises. I didn't argue with him. I just wanted to watch and leave.

Bottom line, Scott's art is, as Shimora puts it, as effective as Tai Chi...maybe a little more because they do Sambo grappling on occassion. He was nice and actually mildly humble when I met him, though he is just a little weird. As Douglas Adams would say, he is mostly harmless.

Wow, way too long of a post!

zeeberex · 02-12-2002, 12:01 PM

Smokey D,

Thanks for your input. I have never trained with Sonnon in person but my friend has some of his tapes. His breathing exercises are as you say, strange. He also behaves strangely on some of his tapes. He may be "harmless", but I guess the real question for everyone is whether these movement and breathing exercises actually work. Or would your time be better spent doing yoga, weight and cardio work? If the moving and breathing exercises don't work or work only marginally, then Sonnon is not harmless because you have just wasted your time and money doing these exercises.

In terms of his inappropriate behavior during training (kissing and touching a student during training) I have had instructors who have had their wives and girlfirends in their classes and not treated them differently than any other student. Actually on rec.martial-arts one of his former students posts that Sonnon would cut short or cancel private lessons because of dates.

Smokey_D · 02-12-2002, 12:33 PM

I think that debate will always continue about breathing exercises. Obviously, breathing is pretty important.

But, bottom line, if you are saying that you are teaching a self-defense art, then you better well teach grappling and striking. You can inhale/exhale all you want but a 6'4" 250lbs guy will beat that breathe out of you.

I've never seen his tapes. Is there a place to buy them?

As far as the student dating thing goes, I've taught classes myself with my gf as a student and I'd always treat her like a student to the point that other students would not even know we were a couple. There needs to be a professional line drawn.

Oh well, I wouldn't waste any $$ on Sonnon.

Peace.

zeeberex · 02-12-2002, 12:54 PM

Smokey_D,

The tapes are available on the ROSS website, don't know the URL offhand.

Why did you feel uncomfortable about going to Sonnon's home? I know that ROSS practitioners are called a "tribe" for some reason.

The breathing exercises I have seen were very strange. I did try some of them, but in private as frankly if someone saw you doing these exercises they would think you were deranged. There is one where you are on all fours and rock back and forth barking like a dog. I have heard some people say the breathing exercises help but they didn't help me. But then again I didn't do them for a long time. I guess the question is whether just doing standard cardio work would be better.

Smokey_D · 02-12-2002, 01:37 PM

I found his website: http://www.amerross.com/

Interesting site. I'll look through everything and maybe buy something just to have.

I felt uncomfortable going to his home because of two reasons: 1)it seemed like such a cult that I didn't want anything to happen to me. There would be up to 8 people there so I needed to be careful. 2) I just thought I would only go there to prove something and that's not the right reason to workout with someone especially when there has been no challenge or anything.

I forgot about the barking exercises!! I remember when I went there (more than 2 years ago) that there were doing such goofy stuff that I had to hide my face because I was starting to laugh. It really is a strange art.

Until I see a scientific study that shows this type of excercises are as beneficial as they claim OR they prove themselves in a MMA event with only ROSS as their training style, I will not be convinced that these breathing techniques hold any merit.

Many years ago, I was caught up in the traditional MA with all of the Chi, Ki, breathing, etc. It took about 2-3 years before I really started to doubt the whole thing and my eyes were open to the reality of fighting, training and self-defense (kind of like the Matrix

). In any event, I lump ROSS with Tai Chi and other of these "martial arts".

Oh well, as long as they don't bother me, I have no problems with them. It's a free country.

zeeberex · 02-12-2002, 02:18 PM

There is actually a thread on rec.marital-arts right now saying that ROSS is a psuedoscience. So I would doubt that there is any published scientific evidence supporting it.

There is actually a ROSS tape set (forget what it is called) that claims to be for MMA training. As I have never seen any of the ROSS "tribe" in an MMA event, I'm a bit skeptical that they could train someone for MMA. Isn't it a good idea to compete in MMA before putting out a set of tapes that are supposed to be for MMA training?

It would be interesting to see Sonnon in an MMA event, if only because he looks, talks and acts a bit different than most people. I think he would probably get beat down though.

Smokey_D · 02-12-2002, 02:32 PM

I agree with you that if you are going to put out a MMA tapes (see below) that you should have proved it. He quotes a UFC fighter (Elvis Sinosic) saying that he is a "convert", but I'm very skeptical just because he has a background in other arts. He has many other testimonials, but I just don't think his stuff is all it's cracked up to be.

Check out: http://www.amerross.com/aarmacs/fight.html

It would be interesting to see Sonnon in MMA. Because of his unorthordox style, he may surprise people like Sakuraba, but I doubt it. He is strictly sport Sambo and goofy breathing exercises.

Later.

HerefordJJ · 02-12-2002, 04:37 PM

the guy trolling sonnen on rec.martial-arts has no other posts except to flame him and then ZEEBEREX the famous newsgroups troll joins here with no other posts than about sonnon. LOL what a putz

Szczepankiewicz · 02-12-2002, 04:41 PM

HerefordJJ comes onto the scene to expose the troll for what he is!

zeeberex · 02-12-2002, 06:49 PM

HerefordJJ, or should I say Scott Sonnon, welcome. We go back quite a ways.

Szczepankiewicz · 02-12-2002, 06:51 PM

Oh goody goody,

A cat fight!

Smokey_D · 02-12-2002, 07:15 PM

How can HerefordJJ be Scott Sonnon when I'M Scott Sonnon?!

Will the real Scott Sonnon please stand up, please stand up?

Flash · 02-12-2002, 08:06 PM

I have absolutely NO experience with ROSS or with Scott Sonnon but from reading the ROSS web-site and other sources of Mr. Sonnon's writings, some things strike me as being a bit odd.

He seems to adopt the speech/grammatical patterns of Russians speaking English when he writes. He also seems to have a penchant for using polysyllabic words when simpler words and sentence structures would do just as well.

Nothing really indicative of the worth of the man and his art but a little bizarre.

02-10-2002, 01:29 PM	#1 (permalink)
zeeberex Novice Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 7 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Opinions on Scott Sonnon? Anyone here have any experience with Scott Sonnon, the ROSS (Russian Martial Art) guy? Is his stuff (Grappler's Toolbox, breathing exercises, etc.) worth the time? I hear mixed things about whether this stuff is useful. I looked up Sonnon on Google newsgroups and there a huge amount of bad press on him. A guy claims that Sonnon took his money and didn't provide services, along with a bunch of other allegations - e.g., Sonnon is unprofessional, not very good, his art is psuedoscience, etc.. Anyone here ever train in person with the guy?

02-10-2002, 10:35 PM	#2 (permalink)
Shimora Registered User Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Papua New Guinea Posts: 671 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	He knows his stuff. I see much of ROSS as being similar to Tai Chi and Qi Gong, therefore it should be effective. __________________ "seriouly i would like to fight shimora for the internet fighter world titel, and beathim and chop of his fingers and hang them on the mirror of scooter " Duchman at The Choke Zone forum.

02-12-2002, 04:37 PM	#10 (permalink)
HerefordJJ Novice Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Weird the guy trolling sonnen on rec.martial-arts has no other posts except to flame him and then ZEEBEREX the famous newsgroups troll joins here with no other posts than about sonnon. LOL what a putz

02-12-2002, 04:41 PM	#11 (permalink)
Szczepankiewicz Registered User Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Meridian, ID, USA Posts: 4,109 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	AND THEN.... HerefordJJ comes onto the scene to expose the troll for what he is!

02-12-2002, 06:51 PM	#13 (permalink)
Szczepankiewicz Registered User Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Meridian, ID, USA Posts: 4,109 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Meow... Oh goody goody, A cat fight!

02-12-2002, 07:01 AM	#3 (permalink)
Smokey_D Novice Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Philly, PA Posts: 59 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	I met Scott once in the Harrisburg, PA area. I didn't realize that it was THE Scott Sonnon until after watching his group workout a little then it hit me like a ton of bricks who this guy actually was. I must say that he was very courteous, respectful and kind to me and his students. I have nothing personally against him or his group. With that said, he seems a little weird though: strange facial hair, acting very inappropriate with a student he was dating (kissing and touching throughout the whole workout), and a fanatic devotion to what he was doing. His Russian art is based on breathing and doing some very unusual, and IMHO, pointless breathing exercises while rolling around on the floor. I went to grapple a little with them that night, but it was not their "grappling" night, so Scott invited me to his home to grapple Sambo style later that week. I declined because I felt VERY uncomfortable going to his home and working out with them. On his grappling philosophy, he said that they way they teach, say a heel hook, is not the technique itself, but a student would learn through a Grey's Anatomy book about the physical makeup of the joint being attacked and find it's weakness. That's it. He said they don't really grapple or do any training that involves much contact. His art is mostly based on breathing and the goofy rolling around on the floor exercises. I didn't argue with him. I just wanted to watch and leave. Bottom line, Scott's art is, as Shimora puts it, as effective as Tai Chi...maybe a little more because they do Sambo grappling on occassion. He was nice and actually mildly humble when I met him, though he is just a little weird. As Douglas Adams would say, he is mostly harmless. Wow, way too long of a post!

02-12-2002, 12:01 PM	#4 (permalink)
zeeberex Novice Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 7 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Smokey D, Thanks for your input. I have never trained with Sonnon in person but my friend has some of his tapes. His breathing exercises are as you say, strange. He also behaves strangely on some of his tapes. He may be "harmless", but I guess the real question for everyone is whether these movement and breathing exercises actually work. Or would your time be better spent doing yoga, weight and cardio work? If the moving and breathing exercises don't work or work only marginally, then Sonnon is not harmless because you have just wasted your time and money doing these exercises. In terms of his inappropriate behavior during training (kissing and touching a student during training) I have had instructors who have had their wives and girlfirends in their classes and not treated them differently than any other student. Actually on rec.martial-arts one of his former students posts that Sonnon would cut short or cancel private lessons because of dates.

02-12-2002, 12:33 PM	#5 (permalink)
Smokey_D Novice Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Philly, PA Posts: 59 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	I think that debate will always continue about breathing exercises. Obviously, breathing is pretty important. But, bottom line, if you are saying that you are teaching a self-defense art, then you better well teach grappling and striking. You can inhale/exhale all you want but a 6'4" 250lbs guy will beat that breathe out of you. I've never seen his tapes. Is there a place to buy them? As far as the student dating thing goes, I've taught classes myself with my gf as a student and I'd always treat her like a student to the point that other students would not even know we were a couple. There needs to be a professional line drawn. Oh well, I wouldn't waste any $$ on Sonnon. Peace.

02-12-2002, 12:54 PM	#6 (permalink)
zeeberex Novice Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 7 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Smokey_D, The tapes are available on the ROSS website, don't know the URL offhand. Why did you feel uncomfortable about going to Sonnon's home? I know that ROSS practitioners are called a "tribe" for some reason. The breathing exercises I have seen were very strange. I did try some of them, but in private as frankly if someone saw you doing these exercises they would think you were deranged. There is one where you are on all fours and rock back and forth barking like a dog. I have heard some people say the breathing exercises help but they didn't help me. But then again I didn't do them for a long time. I guess the question is whether just doing standard cardio work would be better.

02-12-2002, 01:37 PM	#7 (permalink)
Smokey_D Novice Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Philly, PA Posts: 59 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	I found his website: http://www.amerross.com/ Interesting site. I'll look through everything and maybe buy something just to have. I felt uncomfortable going to his home because of two reasons: 1)it seemed like such a cult that I didn't want anything to happen to me. There would be up to 8 people there so I needed to be careful. 2) I just thought I would only go there to prove something and that's not the right reason to workout with someone especially when there has been no challenge or anything. I forgot about the barking exercises!! I remember when I went there (more than 2 years ago) that there were doing such goofy stuff that I had to hide my face because I was starting to laugh. It really is a strange art. Until I see a scientific study that shows this type of excercises are as beneficial as they claim OR they prove themselves in a MMA event with only ROSS as their training style, I will not be convinced that these breathing techniques hold any merit. Many years ago, I was caught up in the traditional MA with all of the Chi, Ki, breathing, etc. It took about 2-3 years before I really started to doubt the whole thing and my eyes were open to the reality of fighting, training and self-defense (kind of like the Matrix ). In any event, I lump ROSS with Tai Chi and other of these "martial arts". Oh well, as long as they don't bother me, I have no problems with them. It's a free country.

02-12-2002, 02:18 PM	#8 (permalink)
zeeberex Novice Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 7 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	There is actually a thread on rec.marital-arts right now saying that ROSS is a psuedoscience. So I would doubt that there is any published scientific evidence supporting it. There is actually a ROSS tape set (forget what it is called) that claims to be for MMA training. As I have never seen any of the ROSS "tribe" in an MMA event, I'm a bit skeptical that they could train someone for MMA. Isn't it a good idea to compete in MMA before putting out a set of tapes that are supposed to be for MMA training? It would be interesting to see Sonnon in an MMA event, if only because he looks, talks and acts a bit different than most people. I think he would probably get beat down though.

02-12-2002, 02:32 PM	#9 (permalink)
Smokey_D Novice Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Philly, PA Posts: 59 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	I agree with you that if you are going to put out a MMA tapes (see below) that you should have proved it. He quotes a UFC fighter (Elvis Sinosic) saying that he is a "convert", but I'm very skeptical just because he has a background in other arts. He has many other testimonials, but I just don't think his stuff is all it's cracked up to be. Check out: http://www.amerross.com/aarmacs/fight.html It would be interesting to see Sonnon in MMA. Because of his unorthordox style, he may surprise people like Sakuraba, but I doubt it. He is strictly sport Sambo and goofy breathing exercises. Later.

02-12-2002, 06:49 PM	#12 (permalink)
zeeberex Novice Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 7 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	HerefordJJ, or should I say Scott Sonnon, welcome. We go back quite a ways.

02-12-2002, 07:15 PM	#14 (permalink)
Smokey_D Novice Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Philly, PA Posts: 59 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	How can HerefordJJ be Scott Sonnon when I'M Scott Sonnon?! Will the real Scott Sonnon please stand up, please stand up?

02-12-2002, 08:06 PM	#15 (permalink)
Flash Novice Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 74 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Strangeness... I have absolutely NO experience with ROSS or with Scott Sonnon but from reading the ROSS web-site and other sources of Mr. Sonnon's writings, some things strike me as being a bit odd. He seems to adopt the speech/grammatical patterns of Russians speaking English when he writes. He also seems to have a penchant for using polysyllabic words when simpler words and sentence structures would do just as well. Nothing really indicative of the worth of the man and his art but a little bizarre.

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