"Self-defense" vs. "Fighting"

[Flash]

This has probably been discussed ad nauseum before but hey, it's late, I can't sleep and I'm bored.

Do you feel that there is a difference between "self-defense" and "fighting"? If so, do you think there should be a difference in training methodologies?

Here's my take:

I think there is a difference but I also think there is a lot of overlap between the two. I think training for "fighting" is vital to actually being able to make "self-defense" techniques work as the training for "fighting" gives you the attributes you need to pull off those "self-defense" techniques and it also gives you something to fall back on if you mess up those techniques. However, I don't think that "fighting" training alone can prepare you for "self-defense" situations - How often during "fighting" training do you even consider what your options are if someone is leaning into your car and grabbing a fist-full of your shirt at an intersection?

[LEGION]

I don't really see a difference. I feel that "self-defense" is a horrible misnomer. You don't win a confrontation by "defending yourself". You win by "beating the living shit out of your opponent". Learning to fight usually assures that you are somewhat capable of doing so.

[Flash]

You're right - you "defend" yourself by beating the crap out of the other guy or at least hurting him badly enough to buy you time to escape.

However, I classify "fighting" arts as those arts which train you to deal with a situation in which you know "the fight is on" and you are facing your assailant on a "neutral" footing, i.e. neither person having any sort of advantage outside of strength and skill and attitude.

By "self-defense" arts, I mean those arts which deal with more situation specific techniques, i.e. "What do you do if the guy has you jacked up against the wall and he's trying to crush your adam's apple with his thumbs?" In other words, techniques which deal with situations in which you did not know that "the fight is on" and before you knew it, the assailant attacked and put you in a position of disadvantage.

My contention was that it is easier for the person trained in the "fighting" arts to transition to the "self-defense" arts as he would have developed the attributes necessary to make those "self-defense" techniques work whereas a person who only learned "self-defense" techniques may or may not be able to pull them off depending on that particular person's attributes.

[Bushido]

To me, the word says it all: self-defence! As long as you defend yours self it is self-defence, wether the guy is pushing you on the wall, grabbing your wrist or punching your nose. When someone "agresses" you physically, you become in self-defence mode.

-Bushido

[Szczepankiewicz]

If it were only that easy eh?

Self-defense is meeting a threat with just enough action to neutralize that threat. If you have eliminated that threat, you are no longer defending yourself, but you have become the agressor, subject to societies judgements. So it all depends on your perspective and those of the trial lawyers.

The old saying 'It's better to be judged by twelve than to be carried by six' is quoted by people who've never faced capital charges in a courtroom.

I like the thought of a fight being on a neutral ground. But when is that ever the case? Rare is it that people will fight unless they have a degree of confidence that they will 'win'.

I have asked similar questions on this and other forums. The best answer I heard goes something like this: It's a fight, right up until you don't want to fight any more.

I train to learn the techniques, the applications and combinations of those techniques, and the mindset I will use in the deployment of those techniques. Whether I am 'fighting' or 'defending myself' I use the same techniques.

In a fight I will just try to get the other guy to lose face by giving up or not being able to continue. If you think about it, isolated without a crowd of peers, would you really be fighting someone? Aren't you just trying to save your rep or prove your point? I've been forced to deal with people I would just as soon beat the crap out of. But without other people around, I don't need to save face, therefore I don't need to 'fight'. It's simply easier to avoid or attempt to get along.

If I am defending myself, it has nothing to do with who is watching or trying to prove a point. It's about pure self-preservation and destruction. It's easier (and usually more beneficial) to escape than to obstruct. So all those fancy chopsaki moves I know give way to Nike Power. Still, if I do use techniques, I will use them for maximum effect and destruction.

If I fight with my friends drunken buddy, odds are I am not going to gouge eyes, bite, break joints, or stab sharp things in to make him bleed. But if I was faced with someone trying to steal my anal cherry, you bet I'd do all that and more....

I don't know if this makes any sense, but here it is.

SZ

[Bushido]

You can be sure of my intentions! I dont want to steal nothing from you, especially that cherry...urk! lol

-Bushido

[Szczepankiewicz]

That makes me feel much better....

[Roy Gaflaer]

self defense = Gracie Jiu Jitsu
fighting = Gracie Jiu Jitsu

[Flash]

Originally posted by Roy Gaflaer
self defense = Gracie Jiu Jitsu
fighting = Gracie Jiu Jitsu

Whatever you say, my little cabbage.

[Bushido]

I agree 1000%!!!

[Flash]

Originally posted by Bushido
I agree 1000%!!!

Oh yeah?!?!

I agree 10,000%!!!!

So there!

[JKD_Jay]

"Kick him in the knee, poke him in the eye, kick him in the groin, and run away..." -Bruce Lee

Sounds like a good self defense strategy to me.

[CHOKE UK]

There are many people highly trained in various martial arts(black belt and various dans), that live in a false sense of security.
And infact get into dangerous situations because of it.
I have seen this many times, and some of the people who thought they could handle an opponent because of their 3rd dan black belt(or whatever), have had some of the biggest beatings, because they completely misjudged their ability because of the fact that they "over-rated" there ability to have a real street fight, because they made the common mistake of confusing two completely different activities!
Sports and a real anything goes street fight.
There is only one way to practice a real fight, other than having real fights every night.
Competing at "No-holds-barred" !
Thats where the difference is highlighted, between what we all think we know, and what we actually do know.