new kenpo question

[cfr]

I appreciate all your responses. What it seems to me as though the general opinion is its only as good as the teacher and prearranged techniques are a joke. (which I suspected) I beleive the instructors are awesome do to who they trained under in the past and who they are training under today. (John Conway in Kenpo when he was alive, Dan Inosanto in JKD today.) I have questioned them about the prearranged techinques and they told me to think I could ever pull a whole one off is a joke. That they all involve different positions and different scenarios. But said the value is because of the fact that different body positioning in different scenarios will warrant different techniques. And that one technique can be changed to another if needed. And again, we do boxing drills regularly as well. Does any of this info prompt any new responses or insights? I am not trying to contradict any thing anyone has said but only to get opinions based on my info. Thanks again for any insight.

[aseepish]

Having trained in kenpo for about two years (it was my first martial art - six years ago), I can say that the pre-arranged self-defense techniques aren't a complete joke - if you view them more as escapes than fixed responses to specific attacks. But once the element of surprise is gone, you must be prepared to fight in every range. If someone is stupid enough to grab you without striking, kenpo works like a charm.

I think the main problem with kenpo is their training method - the self-defense techniques aren't intended to be "fixed" responese, but a way to teach trapping principles and concepts (the cancelation of the opponent's height width and depth). Unfortunately it takes years of training to be able to apply these concepts freely and spontaneously. Arts like Wing Chun, Silat, and some Filipino styles have much better training methods that can transmit these skills in a much more efficient manner. Kenpo is also lacking when it comes to groundfighting skills.

Kenpo is a good base - a good place to start from. Keep an open mind, question everything, and find out what works for you - test it in sparring! learn from everyone. In the end, there is no such thing as style.

-T

[Xtreme J]

" Unfortunately it takes years of training to be able to apply these concepts freely and spontaneously. "


Not at all; in the AKKI, we have ( and still developing ) training methods for fluidity, spontaneity, and rythmatic flow through the use of new sets and drills ( very similar to FMA and WC drills, but the intend/outcome is a bit different ). These, IMO, also bridge the gap between self-defense ( the techniques ) and fighting ( when self-defense fails or never happens to begin with ). The students start learning and applying this at the yellow belt level.

I hope that helps clear a few things up.

[robertlee]

prearranged drills help to develop the tools in a controled field. And offer ways to defend and counter. But to do exactly as the drill in combat well Its hard. Why You react for the moment, what comes to mind is what you do. respond. Yes some you could setup but dont plan on it. Still good to train the steps, move on to reaction drills then free style Think of the prearranged drills like the starter on your car . It starts the car but you do the driving. A step prosess to learn by, of how to then you do is next.

[David Hume]

As a yellow belt I have to agree with robertlee above. I don't see our techniques as being ones that we would apply literally in the situations they are presented. The good part is that some of the combinations start to flow naturally after only a few months of practice. I'm not talking about the whole set of moves, just a few components. I've noticed this in sparring already - I'm able to block effectively and deliver a few punch/handsword combos that are awesome, even when my opponent is in the process of trying to deliver another punch or two.

But I also have to agree with some of the detractors. Let me give an example. The first part of the orange belt technique "leaping crane" is a joke. Sure it would be nice to sidestep a punch and kick out the opponent's leg, followed by a hit to the kidney then elbow strike/sandwich, but there's no way in hell I'm going to evade a punch in real life by hopping onto one leg in that "gangster" looking crane stance on one leg with my arms crossed. That artsy stuff needs to be out of kenpo, IMHO, if it is to truly be an evolvling MA that boasts real-life self-defense proficiency.

Dave

[jbkenpo]

Originally posted by David Hume
As a yellow belt I have to agree with robertlee above. I don't see our techniques as being ones that we would apply literally in the situations they are presented. The good part is that some of the combinations start to flow naturally after only a few months of practice. I'm not talking about the whole set of moves, just a few components. I've noticed this in sparring already - I'm able to block effectively and deliver a few punch/handsword combos that are awesome, even when my opponent is in the process of trying to deliver another punch or two.

But I also have to agree with some of the detractors. Let me give an example. The first part of the orange belt technique "leaping crane" is a joke. Sure it would be nice to sidestep a punch and kick out the opponent's leg, followed by a hit to the kidney then elbow strike/sandwich, but there's no way in hell I'm going to evade a punch in real life by hopping onto one leg in that "gangster" looking crane stance on one leg with my arms crossed. That artsy stuff needs to be out of kenpo, IMHO, if it is to truly be an evolvling MA that boasts real-life self-defense proficiency.

Dave

Hey Dave,

A couple of things. You'll find most of the techniques are executed from a natural (non-committed) stance. While in sparring you are committed and each is throwing punches and blocking appropriately. So the techniques don't work (at least not for me) when I used attempt to use them within a freestyle situation. But the Freestyle techniques work very well. I don't know if your curriculum teach them or not. Some people can execute the techs within a "sparring" format with enough practice on timing.

To the leaping crane technique that you seem to have a hard on for (I've read your gangsta crane deal on at least 2 forums, which is not a problem..your searching for answers), what does that technique actually teach? (other than there is something your not good at...) The motion isn't that much different from step left/check left, a normal filipino motion, except the right hand middle knuckle strikes the right rib instead of guntings to the inner bicep, the "leap"cocks the foot to come down on the back of the opponent's right knee/calf, and the stance allows the strike to come down at the appropriate angle and then reorbit into the sandwich strike. In fact, with the what if mixed in, if you were on gravel you could do the same tech with just a left step then take the extra time and motion to them pick up your right leg and take out the knee. That is what you can an "and" motion in Kenpo and it is normally avoided and considered a wasted motion, but everything has its place I suppose.

If your instructor is only doing it in such a way that it appears to be "artsy" and not effective, then maybe you guys are just pillow fighting in pajamas. But if he can bring it, then he should be able to make you a believer by letting you feel it.

jb

[MrPoopy]

What is the sparring like in Kenpo?

In BJJ, sometimes you will learn techniques that might end up not working very well for you. But the thing is that because there is so much sparring involved, you learn what works for you and what doesn't. And it's all done at full speed.

What exactly are pre arranged techniques? Is it just a long serious of responses?

[jbkenpo]

Originally posted by MrPoopy
What is the sparring like in Kenpo?

In BJJ, sometimes you will learn techniques that might end up not working very well for you. But the thing is that because there is so much sparring involved, you learn what works for you and what doesn't. And it's all done at full speed.

What exactly are pre arranged techniques? Is it just a long serious of responses?

Hey Buddy,

You actually asked 2 questions. What is sparring like, and what are Kenpo techniques like?

First, Kenpo is the analytical study of motion. The "prearranged techniques" or techniques are responses to various attacks. All responses are based on principles of logic.

What Kenpo schools will do is, "run the line". This allows a person to work a technique against a punch attack (or whatever attack) from different shapes and sizes of people at different levels of commitment.

The freestyle techniques teach particular principles (like cancelling various dimensions of an attacker) within a sparring or committed situation. Also the "long" series of responses normally only take a couple of seconds or so to complete.

In my opinion there isn't a set method that Kenpo schools use to spar. I've been involved in groups that do only point sparring style, others continuous sparring style, some that involve thai style leg kicks and grappling. That's why I think a proficiency in all ranges in imparative to be a complete student of the arts.

I'd love to find a blue or purple belt who didn't have anything to do during the day, here in houston, that I could play with and exchange info. For now I'll have to settle for my bjj tapes.

jb

[MrPoopy]

I'd work out with ya! If I was a blue belt and lived in houston and didn't have anything going on during the day.

[jbkenpo]

Originally posted by MrPoopy
I'd work out with ya! If I was a blue belt and lived in houston and didn't have anything going on during the day.

A fellow, born and raised in Kansas guy is always welcome. I just said blue or purple because I'd guess they have a solid grasp of the system and would be after the dollars so much like the black belts, but I'm open to all regardless of rank.

jb