newbie qustions

[clash]

Hello all

This is my first post and I wanted to ask a couple of questions. I have no background in martial arts so please forgive my ignorance.

I live in a small town and there is only one karate class, I have not joined yet but have spoken to the instructor and he breiefly showed me the first form that I will be learning.

OK, my first question. What is the purpose of these forms? Are they intended to build muscle memory? Are they tai chi related?

My next question, dont laugh. how do you break wood?
I read some text on a website that said something like, "people mistakely use the wooden dummy to practise hitting hard so that they can break wood but that is a common mistake and that is why they can't break wood" I was a little surprised to read that that is *not* the way to learn. So what is the way to lean? Again is this tai chi related?

My next question, I am interested in wooden dummy techniques, how do I go about learning this when the only martial arts school in town does'nt teach it? Is this something that can be learned from a book or video? If so can you recommend?

I look forward to your answers. This is a great forum.

[ceasarx]

Welcome to the forum and I might have some answers for you. The Kata forms are used to help you memorize your movements and to help build focus. Thai Chi uses similar forms but karate kata is not based on the same princaples.

The practice of breaking wood I would not recomend without some sort of training but it boils down to focusing beyond your target and not stopping when you hit the board.

The wooden dummy thing is usually used in kung fu systems and I have no real experience in that type of training so i will offer no advice there. I would suggest that you look out side the town you live in and try to find other martial arts to base your training off from so you are forced into one option.

Good luck

[GrdStorm]

Ok lets break it down

Karate Forms - pretty much useless UNLESS you know how to break them down and really concentrate on learning them. I have no real experience with this but I do know that when people study kung fu forms, they actually concentrate on what every movement represents. I know this because my uncle has been training in Wing Chun for 20+ years and hes a total badass... but thats only because he broke down the Wing Chun forms. His SiFu showed him every little detail.

But my opinion is Karate is crap unless you learn from a really good instructor who knows how to show and interpret the moves.

Wood Breaking - WHAT THE HELL FOR???? what does it teach you???? nothing... pointless crap bro. If you want to harnest power, go put on some bag gloves and punch the heavy bag.

Wooden Dummy - The Wooden Dummy is traditionally used in Wing Chun kung fu practice (3rd form). I think other kung fu forms have started using it now.

[crazyjoe380]

from what i know about kata..

Vital points and martial techniques

All evolved martial technique rests on the knowledge of the vital points; the traditional Katas and schools of Kung Fu are really oriented towards this science.

The Katas and movements lean on strokes, holds, blockages and strategies directed toward the vital points. This stage is normally studied and developed only after the second and the third degree of practise of the Katas, the first being the Bunkai.


^^^

got that from this site

http://www.bushido-online.com/dimmak/dimmak008.htm

[yenhoi]

Kung Fu Forms:

crazyjoe is not correct, he is close, but wrong. Most kung Fu forms are training tools to teach your body how to move correctly while maintaining strong and 'correct' structure. Most 'moves' from the forms arent really 'aiming' at anything, let alone designed to hit only vital points. Yes, you can gleen very basic applications from each move, but that doesnt mean that is the only application, or even the intended application(s). Forms are an easy (or not so easy) way to practice an entire set of skills/weapons/tools/energys on your own, and is a easy way for an instructor to monitor progress, at least in technical ability. Forms also train stance, among a list of other smaller, sometimes ignored attributes.

Karate and TKD kata, I have much less expierence with, but are supposeto do the same thing.

Breaking boards should teach you how, and then refine your power generation and 'fajing' (power use.) Nothign wrong with breaking boards - should never be your focus or anything, it doesnt hurt people to expierence how much power they can actually generate and use on a consistent basis.

Wooden dummy is for lots of stuff, perfecting yuor technique, footwork, power generation, fajing, everything except for aliveness - which you can only get from a resisting partner.

My recomendation is to goto the Karate class, and if you like it, then stick around. Your martial art skill will depend 90% on you, and how you train, and only 10% on the school and teacher, if you are serious, and this school and teacher are not, you will find out very quickly and will ditch the place for something better quality.

[crazyjoe380]

^^^

HEY HEY HEY.. DONT SAY I'M WRONG.. WRITE AN EMAIL TO THIS WEBSITE AND TELL THEM THEY ARE WRONG.. NOT ME..

GRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!

Yeah right. Forms and Katas. Yeah, they really do teach you how to fight......... Course they do. That's why you see top tennis champions prancing around like constipated robots.....and top football players etc.

All this is silly mysterious fallacy. These cons enable an average puny guy to convince people he has deadly powers without actually having to hit anyone or anything!

Of course people will fall over themselves and get all superior. I must be a mere philistine who fails to appreciate the real application and "bunkai" of the Kata.

Bunkai? More like Bunkum.

[terry]

Originally posted by yenhoi
Kung Fu Forms:


Breaking boards should teach you how, and then refine your power generation and 'fajing' (power use.) Nothign wrong with breaking boards - should never be your focus or anything, it doesnt hurt people to expierence how much power they can actually generate and use on a consistent basis.

Gee, I dunno. Most people I've seen breaking boards break these 3/4" pine planks that have been pre-dryed at a lumber yard. Then they stack multiples of these boards up as if it is that much harder. Actually, Scientific American did an article on the physics of Karate, and as it turns out the force required to break a stack of boards (with spacers) is not that much more than the force required to break one.

Well, that's okay for children maybe. But if you are a grown man try kicking through a 2x4 or 2x6. Now, that's the kind of challenge that isn't just a parlor trick.

Terry

Breaking boards is a useless talent, and also a con. Like terry said part of the art includes preparing the wood in the first place.

And why break boards? We never aim to break the surface we hit in a person anyway. Even a broken jaw isn't broken at the point of impact, but at the joint of the mandible.

It looks impressive to the public, but is a useless con trick.

[yenhoi]

I agree with the nay-sayers, but:

Breaking a board for the first time is not useless to the person who broke the board.

Breaking multiple boards has very little to do with force, its about getting the force in the right place.

A person who actually spends time training to break boards is wasting alot of valuable energy.

I am not familiar with all people or schools or teachers who break boards, when I broke a few boards years ago, we started from contact with the board and without losing contact, broke the board(s). That expierence was very valuable in realizing the mechanics of one-inch power.

[AKF]

I try to stay out of the 'BJJ is better than Karate & Kung Fu is better that Boxing' bullshit that occurs on this board, but I have to agree with terry on this one.

I have also read articles and seen demonstrations that illustrate that successful board breaking is basically a matter of good leverage and counter-pressure.

Counter-pressure essentially is the amount of force the 'holders' place on the opposite side of the board being broken. Have you ever seen two 'holders' leaning in hard and with tons of weight against the board. That amount of counter-force comtributes heavily to the ease of the board being broken.

There are tons of breaks in arts like kung fu that I don't know about, so I am not claiming expert status here. The breaks I have done were nothing short of simple.

[clash]

Thanks for all the replies, for the most part they are informative and helpful to a newbie like myself. I am however, finding it a little difficult to distinguish fact from opinion in some cases.

Some say breaking wood has no purpose, others say that it teaches how to focus force. If it teaches how to focus force it has value, no? Would it have made any difference if, instead, I had asked how do you break concrete with your hands?

I was all set to join the karate class in two days from now but now that I have read your replies I am not so sure because I have been left wondering if it will be worthwhile.

I am confused as to whether karate *really* is worthless or if that is just the *opinion* of some members.

Thanks again for your replies.

[mike]

I personally dont like Karate but if your interested I think you should check out George Dillman's pressure point fighting. He has broken down kata forms and seems to have found techniques hidden in the forms. I say 'think' and 'seems' because I have never witnessed any of his one strike knock-out moves or such, but some people swear by it.

check it out http://www.dillman.com/


thanks,

Mike

[Biker]

Any where you go and ask, you will get different opinions about what style is worthwhile. At the very least check the classes out, ask if you can watch a class. Then maybe try it for a month. Find out what sort of certification the instructor has, if he/she really is the teacher they say they are. There are plenty of places where someone claims to be a grandmaster this or that who really are not qualified for anything.

It doesn't hurt to check it out and maybe try it for a little while. In this forum, traditional martial arts are generally looked down upon. Go to a forum for traditional martial arts and you will get the exact opposite opinion. It's all a matter of opinion. All it boils down to is how well you can make a particular style work for you.

[crazyjoe380]

i hope to break wood one day..


i can break a toothpick in half.. how you like me now?