Is fighting ability a good gauge of athleticism?

[Newbie]

I believe that if tenacity and technique are equal, a no rules, no time-limit, no rounds, no stand-ups fight to the finish is the ultimate test of one's overall althleticism.
What do you guys think?

[Mr. Miyagi]

That makes sense. But really, the best most gifted athletes are not competing in MMA right now and maybe never will. Most MMA fighters weren't exactly kicking ass (few were) in boxing, thai boxing, wrestling, and most very gifted athletes would rather play football, basketball, or baseball.

[Evilution]

I would agree. I can't think of anything that takes a more diverse range of movements, or anything that entails more powerful movements. With most tests of athleticism there is a single thing that can be focused on, but in a NHB fight you have to be ready for almost any kind of physical movement, and there's no telling how long it will go. Fighting is nothing if not extremely physical.

[Hawk]

HMMMMMM,
Well, I think of an athelete as someome that does well in a variety of sports. A fighter may not be able to do anything but fight. For example, ABC Sports had great sports figures compete in different sports like running, swimming, weightlifting, etc. Joe Frazier finished dead last and almost drowned in the swimming pool. Does that make him a great athelete? No, not by my definition, however IMO he was an awesome fighter. It depends on the person, however a guy can be a great fighter without being a great athelete.
Hawk

[Tony10]

LOL Hawk about Frazier. And your point is right on.

One could argue to some extent that for USEFUL athleticism (self defense) fighters are the best athletes.

However, I think the athleticism of even a great kickboxer pales compared to that of an olympic gymnast. Those guys are built, they use all there muscle groups, they have to be conditioned and they're flexible as hell.

[Mickey Finn]

Originally posted by Tony10
However, I think the athleticism of even a great kickboxer pales compared to that of an olympic gymnast. Those guys are built, they use all there muscle groups, they have to be conditioned and they're flexible as hell.

Now if you could just find one that wasn’t a midget…….

[Tony10]

The MALE ones, Mickey.

[Mickey Finn]

Exactly…. They’re midgets. Buff little bastards, but midgets nonetheless

[Tony10]

Really? Hmm, didn't know that.

Okay: TALL MALE GYMNASTS.

This is starting to sound like a personal ad...

[Mickey Finn]

LOL! They have very high strength to weight ratios. But you won’t find a world class gymnast with what most people would consider decent size for that very reason.


IMO, the components of athleticism:

Speed/reflex
Strength/power
Coordination
Flexibility
Endurance
Toughness/durability
Drive

MMA has it all. Someone like Frank S. has it all.

Boxing has almost all of it. (Not much of a requirement for superior flexibility)

NFL receivers and defensive backfield players have most of it also.

[Tony10]

I hear ya.

Frank Shamrock = perfect specimen

[YeLLa-TiGeR]

Is frank juiced up?

BTW being a former bodybuilder cant take away from what he looks like now!

[Newbie]

You guys seem to misunderstand. I am saying that I believe that the ability to fight in itself is the ultimate method of determining overall athleticism as long as factors such as technique and tenacity are taken into consideration. If you can fight, you are athletic. If you can't, you're not.

For example, I honestly believe that Tank Abbot is athletically superrior to Micheal Jordan. I believe that if they both had the same amount of training, Tank Abbot would crush the life out of him. To make an analogy, Tank Abbot is a Bandog and Micheal Jordan is a Greyhound, a Dobermann at best. Tank Abbot's physical supperiority over Micheal Jordan correlates to the physical supperiority of a Bandog over that of a Greyhound or Dobermann Pinscher.

Hawk

"A fighter may not be able to do anything but fight."

As long as he can fight, his athleticism has been proven to at least some extent. Many of the contests we use to measure athelticism are just silly activities that have little or nothing to do with the ability to defeat your oppponent in a physical confrontation.



[Edited by Newbie on 11-14-2000 at 07:00 AM]

[Mr. Miyagi]

I know that Frank seems like a perfect physical speciman right now and I'll admit that he's gifted. But I insist that MMA competition is nowhere near the level of other sports and the few athletes that did compete in MMA that were great specimans (ie Kevin Jackson, Kenny Monday) were not that well versed in recent MMA fighting.
Do you guys really think that Frank is more gifted than guys like the Golden Boy, Trinidad, Roy Jones, etc? I say no way in hell. Those guys had to fight so many times and remain undefeated for so long to reach champ status. Frank just showed up at the UFC and fought a title bout in his first appearance there against an ignorant Kevin Jackson. MMA is still in it's infancy guys.
Hypothetically speaking, imagine if Oscar de la Hoya decided to join the Lion's Den. He would waste everyone within 30 lbs of him in MMA if he did that. But he wouldn't be any richer for it and there is no reason for him to do that.

[Edited by Mr. Miyagi on 11-14-2000 at 09:00 AM]

Mr. Miyagi:

Once again, I am sucked into a debate on the athleticism of MMA'ers.

It is engaging in pure speculation to say that De La Hoya could join the Lion's Den and "dominate" people at his weight. Great athletes can't necessarily learn to grapple and all the other skills they need to be successful in MMA fighting.

I would say the most important prerequisites for a successful MMA fighter are intelligence and coordination. When I say "intelligence", I don't mean high SAT scores, I mean a high level of perceptual awareness that allows you to visualize an entire fight sequence before it ever happens and develop an appropriate game-plan. AND the ability to react to unanticipated changes in that sequence as it occurs. Fight smarts. Then you need physical coordination to pull off the necessary moves required to win.

Someone like Jeremy Horn comes to mind. Despite a rather un-athletic body type, Jeremy has been successful because he is a "smart" fighter with the coordination to pull off tricky moves. With these qualities, he was able to nearly defeat Frank Shamrock, who is definitely an Olympic-level athlete. Royce Gracie is another good example of a successful unathletic fighter.

However, guys like Frank and Sak are smart, coordinated, AND athletic, and thus have an advantage over their less athletic opponents like Horn and Royce. Especially over the course of a long fight, where conditioning plays a key role.